Next Steps: IFR Rating or Tailwheel/Acro?

[Slick Goodlin]

[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=4754.msg12343#msg12343 date=1478374252]
It is almost inconceivable that there are so few people in such a big country that are not skilled enough as pilots to give training is simple conventional gear airplanes.
[/quote]
You know Chuck, from where I'm sitting it seems tailwheels are making a comeback and it's awfully nice to see.  When I finally get my 'forever job' (or admit that's what I already have) I plan to contribute by buying a Champ and selling block time on the thing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Excellent.


You should get hold of Iflyforpie, he is building the PA11 homebuilt I had, we are going to put it to work checking out people on fun airplanes.


I was going to start a group of pilots that offer training on private owned airplanes like the Champ and Cub.


I am past the age where I want to commit to such an undertaking but sure would like to be involved if you guys start such a group.


The Colonel would be a great guy to get in your group you can't find a better qualified guy than him.


The beauty of it is there is no need to deal with TC and all their weird ideas on how to train.


Think about it.

[DeflectionShot]

[quote]You know Chuck, from where I'm sitting it seems tailwheels are making a comeback and it's awfully nice to see.  When I finally get my 'forever job' (or admit that's what I already have) I plan to contribute by buying a Champ and selling block time on the thing. [/quote]

Please breathe Chuck, we need as many tailwheel guys alive as possible. Because I'm bored I decided to do an FTU inventory of tailwheel trainers west of Ontario. Here's what we have:

MB: Winnipeg Aviation - 1 Super Decathlon
MB: Harv's Air - 3 Citrabria's, 1 Pitts
SK: Leading Edge Aviation - 1 Super Decathlon
AB: Calgary Flying Club - 1 Citabria
AB: Namao Flying Club - 1 Citabria
AB: Absolute Aviation - 1 Citabria
BC: Pro Aviation - 1 Citabria
BC: Canada Flight Center - 1 Citabria
BC: Glacier Aviation - 1 Citabria

May have missed a couple, but that totals 11 for all the western provinces. Not great but not a wipe out either.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The secret to success in tail wheel training is to use an airplane that is cheap to buy, operate and maintain.


The Champ is probably the less expensive compared to a J3 because the Cub is usually more expensive to buy.


So what I am trying to say is you can teach tail wheel flying with the less expensive machines, and then after they are competent handling them they can go find a aerobatic machine if they want to learn aerobatics.


I have a training syllabus that is vastly different from what flight schools use and my method produces far better results than the cookie cutter method used by flight schools.


Properly run a training business using a privately registered airplane can be financially viable for the operator.


For sure you must make at least $100.00 per flight hour  to even consider doing it.


Just imagine being able to teach flying with no need to deal with those idiots in Transport.

[BCPilotguy]

[quote author=DeflectionShot link=topic=4754.msg12349#msg12349 date=1478392831]
[quote]You know Chuck, from where I'm sitting it seems tailwheels are making a comeback and it's awfully nice to see.  When I finally get my 'forever job' (or admit that's what I already have) I plan to contribute by buying a Champ and selling block time on the thing. [/quote]

Please breathe Chuck, we need as many tailwheel guys alive as possible. Because I'm bored I decided to do an FTU inventory of tailwheel trainers west of Ontario. Here's what we have:

MB: Winnipeg Aviation - 1 Super Decathlon
MB: Harv's Air - 3 Citrabria's, 1 Pitts
SK: Leading Edge Aviation - 1 Super Decathlon
AB: Calgary Flying Club - 1 Citabria
AB: Namao Flying Club - 1 Citabria
AB: Absolute Aviation - 1 Citabria
BC: Pro Aviation - 1 Citabria
BC: Canada Flight Center - 1 Citabria
BC: Glacier Aviation - 1 Citabria

May have missed a couple, but that totals 11 for all the western provinces. Not great but not a wipe out either.
[/quote]


You can add AB: Bear Air - 1 Super Cub.


I've been doing a bit of poking around looking at tailwheel training as a way to expand my horizons a bit.  Options that aren't a Citabria are few and far between.  I wonder if Harv's would train me on the Pitts without any previous tailwheel time  ;D


Some acro training is definitely on the list for me also.  My 5-10 year airplane plan is to either upgrade to a more capable machine or buy a second airplane.  In the meantime I'd like to explore some other facets of aviation to help determine what I want my flying future to look like and to simply improve my overall skill level. 

[DeflectionShot]

[quote]I wonder if Harv's would train me on the Pitts without any previous tailwheel time[/quote]

Hi BCPilotguy,

I think the answer is yes. Go to Harv's Air website and you will see they have a menu for aerobatic training: the choice is either the 7EAC or the Pitts (Citabria time is cheaper). You don't need tailwheel time to do the course. They do offer TW training separately on the Citabria and you can solo in it. Don't think you can solo in the Pitts though but check with Harv's (I am assuming the insurance requirement for the S2S is substantial). I found Harv's pretty responsive this summer when I was looking for TW time. As an alternative Winnipeg Aviation has Super Decathlon and they're pretty good as well. I went with Winnipeg Aviation because they were easier to schedule at St. Andrews.

[Colonel]

[quote]I wonder if Harv's would train me on the Pitts without any previous tailwheel time[/quote]

My answer would be, "Yes, but ..."

You don't need to be able to take off and land a Pitts
(initially) to enjoy it's wondrous aerobatic capabilities.

[url=http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/tumble.wmv]Low Tumble[/url]

It's actually very easy to fly acro in, because of the
power-to-weight ratio (which gives vertical) and four
ailerons with spades (which gives a decent roll rate
with a light stick) and constant-speed prop (no worries
about redline) and inverted fuel and oil systems and
round wings (no worries about going negative).

However.  To fly acro, you really need to have mastered
the rudder pedals.  People have tried - and failed - to
do so.  You simply can't fly acro in a prop airplane with
your feet on the floor like a four-bars.

Hell, I even use the rudder pedals in this:

[url=http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/L39_420knots.mp4]Very Bad People[/url]

Apologies if my videos are lame compared to lambchops.

Here's a instructional video showing how to land a Pitts.

[youtube][/youtube]

and unlike lambchops, [b]I don't want a dime from you[/b].

Note that the throttle goes to idle abeam the threshold
on downwind, and [i]is not touched again[/i] before the perfect
three-point landing.

[img width=500 height=306][/img]

The secret to a perfect three-point landing is to do 10,000
of them, over 40 years.  They get easier after that.

[BCPilotguy]

[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12365#msg12365 date=1478459705]

My answer would be, "Yes, but ..."

You don't need to be able to take off and land a Pitts
(initially) to enjoy it's wondrous aerobatic capabilities.

[/quote]


I didn't make myself quite clear enough.  I was thinking more along the lines of basic tailwheel training on the Pitts (though acro is definitely on my list also).  I'm sure any school would take up in the hot acro machine of my choice as long as they did the takeoff and landing.  I think it would be an interesting challenge for a low time tricycle pilot like me to try and learn tailwheel on an airplane with the reputation for ground handling that the Pitts has.

[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12365#msg12365 date=1478459705]
However.  To fly acro, you really need to have mastered
the rudder pedals.  People have tried - and failed - to
do so.  You simply can't fly acro in a prop airplane with
your feet on the floor like a four-bars.
[/quote]


It's hard to develop good rudder skills when you only fly airplanes that don't really demand them.  Though I did recently land my Cheerokee in 35G48 wind 20° off the runway and 28G34 60° off recently (North Dakota has some stiff winds).  Straight and on the centerline so I can't be doing that bad.


[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12365#msg12365 date=1478459705]
Here's a instructional video showing how to land a Pitts.

[youtube][/youtube]

[/quote]


I love the inverted traffic check.


[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12365#msg12365 date=1478459705]

Note that the throttle goes to idle abeam the threshold
on downwind, and [i]is not touched again[/i] before the perfect
three-point landing.
[/quote]


Incidentally that's how I like to fly circuits in my Cherokee also, minus the 3 point landing.  Full flaps and a slipping turn from downwind to just off the runway keeps things very tight.  The tower notices and keeps me doing circuits while they send other airplanes off on extended downwinds when scheduled traffic arrives.

[Colonel]

[quote]I was thinking more along the lines of basic tailwheel training on the Pitts[/quote]

Oh, my.  Very expensive trainer.  Most people would think
it is NOT a very good idea, if nothing else because of the
difficulty involved:

1) short coupled, small vertical fin, high wing loading
means things happen very very very fast after touchdown.
Hell, things even happen very fast on approach.  Note
that in the video, a normal power-off approach is around
3,000 fpm descent.

2) blind out the front in the three-point attitude.  In
my experience, this causes more trouble than (1).

Now, there are always exceptions to the rule.  I once
had a student that enjoyed a flight in my Pitts, so he
bought one, and I soloed him in it, but he was not a
normal person in any sense of the word.  He spent
his entire life many sigma out on the bell curve.

TC thinks I suck as an instructor, but as a class 1
instructor/class 1 aerobatic instructor for 25 years,
I might recommend that we start with the

[b]SIMPLE[/b]

and then once that is mastered, move to the

[b]COMPLEX[/b]

Case in point:  a nice young engineer from Bombardier
(I love it when someone shows up with an iron ring -
I start bombarding them with equations) bought an
S1.  He had 500TT with about 100 hours in a Citabria
which is about the gentlest taildragger there is.  When
it touches down, you can pretty well climb outside and
walk alongside with it and keep up.  It's that easy and
slow.

You might think that a Citabria wasn't much help, but
in the motorcycling world, we have a saying:

[u][i]It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride.
[/i][/u]
In precisely 5.0 hours (minimum required for insurance)
in the S-2B, I sent him solo in the S1, which is an
entirely different machine, btw.  Cousins, sort of.

I trained him very intensely and he worked very hard,
and it's possible that I may have even hurt his feelings
once or twice along the way, which means that I am a
bad person and a worse pilot, I understand.

But he learned very, very quickly.  I recommended he
fly his Citabria from the back seat, so he learned to
land with no forward visibility.

Anyways.  Learn on a slow, gentle taildragger, I might
suggest initially on grass.  Then move somewhere with
multiple paved runways to reduce your crosswind component
on landing.

Then, you can graduate to someplace with a single paved
runway where you learn to deal with any crosswind.  Key
West is like that.

Note that a Pitts is really easy to land in a howling, gusty
crosswind.  Much easier than a slow taildragger.

[BCPilotguy]

[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12368#msg12368 date=1478466654]

Now, there are always exceptions to the rule.  I once
had a student that enjoyed a flight in my Pitts, so he
bought one, and I soloed him in it, but he was not a
normal person in any sense of the word.  He spent
his entire life many sigma out on the bell curve.
[/quote]


I figured if anyone knew of an exception, you would.


[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12368#msg12368 date=1478466654]

[u][i]It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride.
[/i][/u]
[/quote]


There's definitely some truth there.  I learned on and still have an ancient Kawasaki EX500.  I've since ridden a wide array of motorcycles, and done a fair bit of riding in Vietnam (which is far more intense than pretty much anything a motorcyclist might be exposed to in North America).  The old EX500 with it's very stylish 80s pink pinstripes gave me everything I needed to do all of that. 


[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=4754.msg12368#msg12368 date=1478466654]
Anyways.  Learn on a slow, gentle taildragger, I might
suggest initially on grass.  Then move somewhere with
multiple paved runways to reduce your crosswind component
on landing.
[/quote]


Perhaps I'll do that then (though the Pitts would make for a better story  ;D [font=Verdana][size=2]).  Any thoughts on a Citabria vs Super Cub vs others?  A lot of what I've read about the Citabria is that it's very gentle, maybe too gentle to fully teach the dirty tricks that a taildragger can pull.[/size][/font]