Lear 35A / 27 Dec 2021 / KSEE

[Colonel]

The wild west.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20211227-0

This was NOT a circle to land approach. They cancelled IFR after flying the
approach to the (shorter) 17, and joined a very low altitude VFR circuit to land
on the (longer) 27R.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N88 ... E/tracklog

Circuit height 750? Elevation KSEE is 388 so he was at 750-388 = 362 feet AGL.

You guys fly the VFR circuit in a Learjet at night at under 400 feet AGL?

One might reasonably presume he had to go that low, to get visual with the airport,
either due to ceiling or slant vis.

Yes, yes, he could have flown the LOC approach to 25, but apparently that's pretty
sporty to land straight in from.

https://flightaware.com/resources/airpo ... AP/all/pdf

[Colonel]

Anyone remember the recent circling approach at Truckee? I think it was a Challenger in a 45 degree bank?

People think I'm stupid, but do you remember me saying over and over again:

"NO ILS, NO APPROACH"

for four bars?

This approach was wild. He was threading the needle, below and between two hills in a fucking Lear at night.

Don't believe me? Look at the ADS-B data. You guys have that in Canada right?

[Nark]

I towed banners and instructed out of KSEE years ago. I know the area very well. Circling off 17 to 27R in a Lear is ballsy, given the terrain. Gillespie sits in a bowl.
I’d be really impressed if, (he didn’t crash on base to final) that he would have been any sorts of stable when he rolled out on final for 27R.

Here is a video I made back in 2009? You can see the terrain in the background:
Standby for that video, I can’t seem to find it on YouTube.

[Colonel]

Wet runways. He really wanted the 5,000 foot runway (25) and not the 4,000 foot runway (17)
and who can blame him for that?

I doubt he had thrust reversers, so he needed to get the speed down on final to get stopped,
which as you say would not have been easy given his crazy night VFR circuit below 400 feet
in shit vis, threading the needle between two hills with peaks above him.

The amazing thing is that I'm sure they've done this before. See "normalization of deviance".

PS I've never flown a jet with thrust reversers, so you'll have to forgive me, but they scare the
shit out of me. What do you do, if one opens and the other doesn't? I guess it's not as bad if
the engines are bolted to the fuselage, but what about when they're on the wings with that
huge moment arm? Moving parts, dude. Just a matter of time until they don't.

[TundraTire]

PS I've never flown a jet with thrust reversers, so you'll have to forgive me, but they scare the
shit out of me. What do you do, if one opens and the other doesn't? I guess it's not as bad if
the engines are bolted to the fuselage, but what about when they're on the wings with that
huge moment arm? Moving parts, dude. Just a matter of time until they don't.

Given the poster, I'm not sure this is a troll attempt, but I'll answer anyway.

Asymmetric reverse thrust is not terribly frightening on aircraft like the 737. The footrests are convenient for countering yaw and keeping the aircraft tracking straight on the landing roll. If the yaw becomes too much, you simply reduce or cancel the reverse, and regain control.

Note: there is no restriction against using reverse on a single engine landing, and no restriction on using asymmetric reverse when one reverser is locked out or otherwise MEL'd.

[Nark]

As T-T said, asymmetric thrust isn't a huge adverse factor on landing.
For our performance factors, we cannot use thrust reverser as a factor in determining suitable landing length, the use of them is a bonus. But thats a paperwork thing (FAA) rather than a certification thing. Not sure if the Canadian regs/operators are the same way.

I use max reverse thrust on nearly all of my landings. Main reason not to is noise (I'm talking internally not external), but if you live by an airport and complain about noise, I'm more inclined to use them... Also in the bus, the A321 more so than the others, reverse thrust shakes the shit out of the overhead bins. If I have a longer runway I'll use idle reverse, which helps to slow down a bit, I'll use less brakes; the friction of tires and pavement helps slow the plane down reasonably too.
Prime example is KPBG in upstate NY. 0 reason to exit early landing north:

IMG_2D260B5EC76F-1.jpeg

Here is the LOC-D for KSEE. minimums are 1940 MSL (1552"afe) (assuming a Lear 35 is Cat C)

IMG_D1F2DAD2F03C-1.jpeg

[Scudrunner]

I use to fly a Lear 35, great plane and very efficient. There is a reason many are still flying today. Not that comfortable in side front or back. Honey pot for a pisser so limit your coffee intake before trip. Some with the tip tanks could have stupid endurance anyway mmo is .80 and goes high (not the advertised FL510 unless your empty with no gas and going straight up and back down at ISA -15)

Very maneuverable fun plane to fly, however small wing you need to respect and accidents as demonstrated here and in Teterboro shows it has limits.

I was having beers with a former Learjet pilot coworker friend of mine the other day and we laughed about how inexperienced we were when we got the nod to fly her.

Looking back then compared to what qualifies now for an “entry bizjet” makes me look like an SR71 skipper. I wonder how much time the pilots had and their training / background.

[anofly]

I would much rather be in a cessna 150, to do that circle to land at night , at 400 feet...

[Slick Goodlin]

Not sure if the Canadian regs/operators are the same way.

Yep.

I use at least enough reverse on landing (well, umm, used to but I’ll be back at it again soon!) to get that ‘reverse green’ call because it makes me feel better about the possibility of a braking issue coming up. I figure the engines are more ready for me to give a pile of reverse jam if needed when I’m already in idle reverse. Maybe I’m an imbecile or maybe some day it will pay off, who knows?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Night circling is 15 times more likely to result in a fatal accident over a straight in approach. The closest I ever came to stuffing it in during an IF approach was a night circle to 08 at CYKA on a Shyte night.

The older I get the bigger the yellow stripe down my back gets…..