I kinda suck at landing....

[TwinOtterFan]

Hello all, I hope all are well on here.

A little update on my training, I am at 23 hours of dual instruction with about 4 of those in the circuit after yesterday, my instructor seems quite happy with my progress so far he wants to sign me off to solo circuits next week, but honestly I think my landings kinda suck, they are not dangerous, he doesn't have to take control away or anything, but I tend to be hitting close to flat, and I tend to float for what feels like forever....

I think my problem is I don't feel or see what my instructor sees or feels, or I think I see or feel it much later than him. Like on approach for example I will get the aircraft trimmed for my desired speed and then I'll have my hand on the throttle ready to adjust and I'lll start to think "Oh I think I'm sinking a touch low" but before I can move the throttle in he's starting to tell me I need more throttle". I get the concept I'm just not quite there, cutting the throttle, and flaring tends to be the say way, sometimes he says something like touch to low, or to high, or not enough flare and such but I just don't see it. especially closer to the ground I do find it tricky to get a good feel for my distance to the ground.

I guess what I am wondering is are there any tricks I can try? Something else I could read? Am I actually on track for my hours and skill?

As always the input on here is much appreciated,

[vanNostrum]

Practice slow flight ,practice,practice and then some more

[Colonel]

Getting "behind the airplane" is very common. It slowly goes away as you spend
more time in the cockpit.

Remember that your job as a pilot, landing a light aircraft, is to put it six inches
above the runway, then with the power all the way off,

STOP IT FROM LANDING.

You don't land a light aircraft. You progressively add more and more back elevator
until you are slow enough that lift decreases - you don't actually stall - and the aircraft
sits down on it's mains with the nose still 6 inches in the air.

Keep holding that nose wheel off. 1 or 2 inches is better. Keep pulling back on the
elevator until it is all the way back, then at absolute minimum speed, the nose tire
touches and hopefully doesn't shimmy.

The above is a perfect landing in a nose wheel light trainer. Try to stop it from landing.

[Colonel]

do find it tricky to get a good feel for my distance to the ground.

Very common. I found it very useful to let the student spend some time doing that.

As an instructor, I would tell the student to not land. Just fly at one foot above the
runway, for the entire length. I would control the throttle.

After some practice at that, I would reduce power and the student would achieve
a perfect landing - because he was trying not to.

[TwinOtterFan]

do find it tricky to get a good feel for my distance to the ground.

Very common. I found it very useful to let the student spend some time doing that.

As an instructor, I would tell the student to not land. Just fly at one foot above the
runway, for the entire length. I would control the throttle.

After some practice at that, I would reduce power and the student would achieve
a perfect landing - because he was trying not to.

This sounds like a really good exercise that would allow me a lot of windscreen time seeing that desired attitude, I will ask my instructor about it but I have a feeling its going to be a hard no...

Colonel, in your previous post you mention 6" above then power off? that seems different then what I am being shown but maybe I am not understanding. My approaches are as follows,

This is what I am being taught,
Once turning final I extend flaps 30 (10 on downwind, 20 on base).
Establish 65kias trimmed.
From here I am just adjusting throttle for my decent rate and maintaining centerline.
Once I am able to make it to the runway throttle to idle transition to cruise attitude ( this is where I tend to get a little to much pitch up attitude and float forever) Then just as the aircraft starts to sink start apply elevator up control increasing it slowly. (I find with my lack of experience this is hard to judge as well)

Yesterday was worse than the other day xwind was nill, headwind was on 8 gusting 12, the rwy I was using has a giant ditch right before it and it tends to up or downdraft witch is not a big deal at all for experience pilots I'm sure but makes it a touch harder for students.

[Colonel]

float forever

You're probably approaching much too fast. I see this all the time
at my current airport - light singles approaching with the nose dug
'way down. No alpha because their speed is much too high.

I mentioned this to some PPLs and they said, yes, they intentionally
approach faster than they should, to avoid stalling and spinning from
wings level on final.

I had nothing. As a 20th century pilot, a perfect solo landing for me
is when the stall warning honks over the threshold, right before touchdown.

[Colonel]

Three ways to deal with an updraft/downdraft at the threshold

1) with a long runway, aim for the 1000 foot markers - displace
the threshold, essentially

2) approach steeper than normal. This is probably not a good
choice for someone just learning to land

3) anticipate the updraft/downdraft and either preload the airspeed
or be ready with the throttle.

Decades ago, I remember going around and around with a student,
and he lost 8 mph at the same place, every time, and every time, he
had to add power yada yada.

I told him, why not just approach initially at 78 mph instead of 70 mph?
When you hit the wind shear, stuff will just work.

You have no idea how lazy I am. Most good pilots are incredibly fat
and lazy, except for Chuck, who's a skinny dude from all the fornication.

[Liquid_Charlie]

I know it's daunting, I can remember my first solo and wondering WTF I'm doing up here by myself. That lasted for about 30 seconds and I just decided to have fun. It was a real blast until the cfi ran out on the runway and flagged me down (no radios). Seems that a 15 year old can't have a learners permit. Solo flying went out the window for a few days until the magic number of 16.

My point is that you actually have the skills and once you put the second thoughts behind you it will be one of the most memorable experiences of your flying career.

I know things have changed and possibly more workload with radios and traffic but in ancient times where there were no radios and flying clubs were using champs, fleets and even cubs most pilots soloed in less than 10 hours. So yes you have the skills just keep your cool and do what you were taught and it will be great. Your skill level is likely far above what I had when I first soloed.

cheers

where is that horny old bugger

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Maybe this will help.

I wrote it for Pprune some years ago.

***********************************************



O.K. I will try and describe how I teach correct height judgement for the flare and height judgement after the flare.

First the flare:

I use a definiable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light bug smashers.

Note:

Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I have them memorize what they observe at the flare point, this avoids any missunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.

Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.

What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........

There is a point ahead of the airplane where the eye will pick up the movement of the runway towards the airplane. This point will change with the speed of the airplane.

For little Bug Smashers that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.

That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your center of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.

The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.

Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )

If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.

Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.


I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.

Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height. )

I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.

My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.

So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.

By the way:::

I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up.

[Colonel]

People are frustrated because landings are hard.

This is because a landing is flying very precise formation
with the runway as the speed deteriorates through the back
side of the power curve and lift disappears. In ground effect!

Most people can't fly formation worth shit.

Most people can't fly slow flight worth shit.

Most people can't maintain altitude as they slow down.

Yet, they are surprised when they can't do a good job at
combining them. This is pretty strange when you think
about it.

Free advice: spend some time - maybe a WHOLE HOUR -
in the practice area at altitude, flying on the back side of
the power curve, stalling and unstalling, dropping a wing
and recovering. Despite what the wankers will tell you,
during this exercise you do not need to maintain a precise
airspeed or altitude. Just learn the control the fucking thing
at high alpha. Learn to use your feet to control yaw. Learn
to unstall by reducing AOA by a degree or two, with forward
elevator. Stall warning should be on the whole hour. Do it
with some flaps to keep the nose down, and some power
to try to maintain altitude. You won't. Don't worry about it,
just learn to fly at Clmax.

Then, learn to fly in formation with the runway. First, do
it at constant airspeed. Once you master that, learn to do
it as the airspeed (and lift) decreases and flight control
responses change. Try not to PIO in pitch, because you
will. Learn what a PIO is, and how to stop it. Duh.

Start by mastering simple things, and only after you have
done that, combine them to attempt a complex task.

Landings are only hard because people haven't spent the
time to master the necessary sub-skills.

Like someone starting tailwheel training. They can't fast
taxi, but they try to land, and when they do they are hopelessly
behind the airplane and head for the ditch. It makes me sad
when I see people waste time and risk wrecking airplanes,
doing that. Learn to taxi slowly, then learn to fast taxi before
you try to land, which requires you to fast taxi. Learn to use
your feet to stay straight as you raise and lower the tail,
compensating for pitch-yaw coupling of the metal-blade prop.

You can see why TC refuses to renew any of my instructor
ratings. I haven't a fucking clue about teaching flying, after
spending a quarter of a century doing it accident-free.