Lower The Nose

[Colonel]

I keep saying this, but when you lose thrust in either a
single or twin, immediately after takeoff when you have
no airspeed you must

[size=24pt]LOWER THE NOSE[/size]

If the aircraft is anywhere reasonably trimmed, all you
have to really do is

[size=24pt]STOP HOLDING THE STICK BACK[/size]

and let the nose fall, and maintain it's trimmed airspeed.

Colgan 3407 and AF 447 and many others may disagree,
but especially after takeoff, you really don't want your AOA
to exceed CLmax.  Bad things happen, even if you really
want to nose to go up.

[b]Evil Instructors[/b] will pull throttles after takeoff during
training so that their students are prepared for this very deadly
emergency, but TC tells us this is a bad idea, so pilots are not
trained for a real engine failure after takeoff, which is the most
dangerous emergency because of the low energy.

This criminal policy of specifically not training for the most
dangerous emergency has horrible consequences and given that
this is not exactly a new problem, I can only assume it is intentional,
and a loud cheering can be heard from 4900 Yonge St when a
completely preventable crash like this occurs.

[Colonel]

Because pilots have absolutely no interest whatsoever in history, and
are thus bound and determined to keep reliving it's lessons over and
over again (there's a word for that) ...

It's time again, for my [u]Tale of Two Comanches[/u].

A few decades back, I was instructing at Carp, near Ottawa.  There
was a nice old guy, who use to rent Wayne Rostad's old single engine
Comanche.  One day, he went flying with his grandson, ran it out of
gas, and they both died when he stalled/spun during his forced approach.

So many lessons there.  A second-order one, was that it had a fuel
totalizer.  But there you have it - a pilot working as hard as he could
during an emergency, with two deaths resulting.

Now let's relocate to the American midwest, where a pilot in another
Comanche goes to sleep because of cracks in his exhaust.  Sole occupant
of the aircraft, it eventually runs out of gas.  Autopilot tried to maintain
altitude, trims full nose up, nice and slow, and autopilot keeps the wings
level.  It naturally descends, and enters ground effect and lands quite
nicely in a cornfield.  The only injury to the pilot, who was completely
unaware and unprepared for the emergency and gear-up landing, was
that he broke his wrist, and woke up from a headache from the carbon
monoxide.

Now, I ask you.  Who did better?  The pilot that frantically stalled and
spun during his forced approach, killing himself and his grandson, or
the pilot that didn't do a fucking thing and had a nice nap and survived?

There is a lesson there for you, from history.  You can choose to either
learn from it, or not.

[b]Lower the fucking nose[/b].

[b]A lot of the time, when you are doing your pilot shit, you are making
things worse.[/b]

The four bars of AF 447 and Colgan 3407 disagree, but they are dead.

[Fendermandan]

Lowering the nose is soooo haaard when your instinct fucks with your head. Joking aside, i am flying with a lot of young pilots and most are thought the wrong thing and what is worse they will not listen to this advice.

[Eric Janson]

Lowering the nose when you have an engine failure is required when flying large jets as well.
Initial pitch attitude on take-off on a twin jet is usually 15 degrees. If you have an engine failure once you reach this attitude you have to lower the nose to around 12.5 because not only have you lost 50% of your power - you've lost 80% of your performance.

You are also on the back side of the power curve.

Failure to lower the nose will result in stalling the aircraft - Vmc is usually lower than the stall speed in a large jet.

A lot of take-offs are done at a reduced power setting. However setting max thrust after an engine failure may lead to a loss of control - yaw on a swept wing jet also results in roll. Depending on how your performance is calculated full thrust may not even be allowed until a certain speed is reached.
On a quad it's slightly different - you've only lost 25% of your power and the aircraft is performing better than any twin. On the A340 initial pitch attitude is 12.5 degrees so there's no change with an engine failure. There's also no requirement to land right away as there is no restriction on 3 engine operations.
On the A340-500 there is so much thrust available that an engine failure in cruise will normally have no effect - you can maintain your speed and your altitude. As a bonus the aircraft now burns less fuel so you can actually fly further!

[Colonel]

First, you need to teach people what to do.

Then, you need them to actually do it - [b]teach new instincts[/b].

Despite TC's incredible micro-management of every tiny detail
of flight training, this incredibly important key to survival - lower
the nose - is not taught.  And people die.

One has to wonder if TC is either outright homicidal, or incredibly
incompetent.

Once people agree on the theory - and we are a long, long
way from that - then we have to implement it, and teach
pilots that their [b]instincts are wrong[/b].

Teaching pilots new instincts takes a lot of effort.  This is
why taildraggers always get wrecked, for example.

So many times, I have talked to pilots on the ground about
the evil of picking up a wing during a stall with aileron.  We
talk about adverse yaw.  And intellectually, they agree.

But under pressure, you know what they do?  Pick up the
wing with aileron!

Same thing with the thrust loss.  They can't help but pull
back.  They are in full panic mode.  Their frontal lobes have
shut down, and they will die because their [b]instincts are wrong[/b],
and they are operating on pure instinct, not intellect.

I must ask: if it's a preventable tragedy, is it still a tragedy?

Time for me to say it again:  this year, there will be no new
causes of aviation accidents.  Every accident will be a tiresome
repeat of many other accidents in the past, which are ignored.

[cgzro]

"pick up the wing with aileron"


Yup - in fact you can do wonderful spin entries with aileron, and wonderful spin recoveries too with aileron but opposite if what most want to do with the stick.

[Colonel]

I hate that fucking steering wheel that they put in airplanes.

People get in and say, Hey, I know how this works.

And during takeoff, the nose goes left, so they steer the stupid
fucking steering wheel right.  That puts the left aileron down,
creates adverse yaw, the nose goes left some more, so they
steer the stupid fucking steering wheel right some more.

Give me a stick in my right hand, and a throttle in my left,
and fuck the salesmen after WWII that put steering wheels
in airplanes to make them look like cars.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Has aviation been dumbed down to the level that there are pilots or rather people flying multi engine airplanes that do not know you " must " lower the nose as your first action when an engine fails, especially just after take off?


Naw, you are exaggerating.

[Slick Goodlin]

[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=8723.msg24017#msg24017 date=1531791981]
Has aviation been dumbed down to the level that there are pilots or rather people flying multi engine airplanes that do not know you " must " lower the nose as your first action when an engine fails, especially just after take off?
[/quote]
Not so much intentionally dumbed down as accidentally misguided to that point.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

[quote]Not so much intentionally dumbed down as accidentally misguided to that point.[/quote]


Regardless of why there are people out there operating multi engine airplanes that do not understand the basics of airplane handling skills the very fact that they exist is frightening.