AC1804 Montego Bay Report Released

[Colonel]

[quote]There is nothing difficult about flying Non Precision Approaches with a fly-by-wire airbus imho[/quote]

While it might be easy for [i]you[/i] to fly a NPA in an Airbus,
evidence would suggest that other pilots struggle with it.

There is ample evidence to suggest that many pilots are
incapable of using the throttle to control the airspeed.

As this becomes more commonly known, we can expect
more automation and less hand-flying.  This of course
will decrease the pilot skills even more, and at some
point complete automation will be mandated, and hand
flying will be totally forbidden.

It's funny to contrast today's pilots, with the guy (Stuart
something) who successfully landed a fighter jet flamed-out
on an aircraft carrier.  Both had zero thrust.  These guys
in the airbus had a slightly larger target.

Here's another guy with zero thrust.  Slightly better landing.
Slightly better stick.  Shittier wx.  Let's hope Arlo never
sees this guy fly through cloud without a clearance:

[youtube][/youtube]

[Rookie Pilot]

[quote author=Fendermandan link=topic=5364.msg13881#msg13881 date=1484373712]
I heard from someone that drivers can get canned if they go 10 kts below VAPP. What happened to these guys?
[/quote]


Promotion.


This is AC

[Eric Janson]

[quote author=Fendermandan link=topic=5364.msg13881#msg13881 date=1484373712]
I heard from someone that drivers can get canned if they go 10 kts below VAPP. What happened to these guys?
[/quote]

Depends on the circumstances and subsequent actions taken.

Speed limits are +10/-5 knots from Vapp on final approach and anything outside these limits requires a "Speed" call.

If I had done what these guys did it would have cost me my job. I don't work at a company with a union.

If I had messed up the approach but made a go-around then I wouldn't have heard anything.

[Colonel]

[quote]I don't work at a company with a union[/quote]

It's a lot different when you work in a company
that's merit-based instead of the socialist dream.

This radical culture difference gets me in trouble
with the cradle-to-grave coddled government babies,
whom have never held a job in the competitive
private sector and just don't "get it".  Oddly, they
usually have large stomachs like a baby, too.  Not
sure if they wear diapers or not.

Air Canada and Nav Canada used to be part of the
government, and we're supposed to believe that
they are somehow magically not any more.  But
if either stumbled, one of Hairdo Dolly's Ministers
would be there immediately, waving the taxpayer
chequebook.

Must be nice to have that kind of sovereign backing.


[quote]If I had messed up the approach but made a go-around then I wouldn't have heard anything[/quote]

[quote]Proverbs 16:18 King James Version

[b]Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall[/b][/quote]

I keep telling people that there are no new accidents
in aviation.  The lesson about this accident was written
what, 2000 years ago?

Not sure anyone will get the irony of an engineer
mourning the death of the classical education.  It's
actually pretty funny.

[Trey Kule]

Promotion?

Are you able to verify that, or just throwing it out there?

As to the throttle issue.  If your speed trend is deteriorating you have to set the power to the correct position  before you hit target speed.  Otherwise with low energy and spool up time you are never going to get it right quickly.
Much different than a piston trainer, and some of these pilots have never flown anything but the two types, and before they became Captains have never made any decisions for years.  Put that Captain with a new FO and you have to pray nothing will go wrong.

[Colonel]

[quote]If your speed trend is deteriorating you have to set the power to the correct position 
[b]before you hit target speed[/b]. 

Otherwise with low energy and spool up time you are never going to get it right quickly[/quote]

I keep trying to teach people this.

[url=http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/FlyingAJet.htm]www.pittspecials.com/articles/FlyingAJet.htm[/url]

[quote]Throttle & Power Management

The big difference – and what you will have to learn about – between piston/prop and jet engines is that you must be more intelligent with the throttles with a jet.

A piston/prop aircraft will tolerate a complete idiot on the throttles.  You can jam them all the way forward and pull them all the way back, over and over again, all during the approach.  While this PIO’ing will really shorten the life of the hardware, such crappy throttle handling can result in a safe landing with a piston/prop aircraft because the aircraft is relatively light, has plenty of drag, and has instantaneous response to throttle movement.

However, such idiotic throttle work will kill you in a jet, because it is heavier, slippery and may have considerable lag to large throttle movements.  A jet will not tolerate a “throttle jockey”.

Even in piston/prop aircraft, I teach people to NOT be throttle jockeys.  You should have a nominal power setting in mind for approach, and you should strive to leave it there.  If you learn good throttle habits with a piston engine, the transition to a jet should not be a difficult one.

[b]If I am in a jet and the student is sawing away at the throttle on final, I tell him to [i]overshoot because we are about to die[/i].  Not so much because of a stall – though that is a possibility – but more likely because of [u]developing an uncontrollable sink at low altitude[/u] which is unrecoverable without afterburners[/b].

Ask the guy that crashed the T-33 short of the 8,000 foot runway at Hamilton a couple years back.  You cannot be a throttle jockey in a jet at low altitude.  I tell people to use 2% N1 changes in the L39 and to watch the trend of the airspeed, which is terribly important with a heavier aircraft.

If you’re an EE, you can probably hear a PID loop, screaming to be let out.  Even if you’re not an EE, you probably should know that you are in the control loop business now.

This is what I tell people who want to fly a jet:  you need to learn to NOT be a throttle jockey.  The way you do this is by cutting the vertical tube in your shower from the valves to the shower head, and insert a 50 foot loop of rubber hose in, clamped at both ends.

Now get into the shower and try to set the temperature.  At first you will be sawing at the temperature valves, miles behind the control loop because of the lag created by the long rubber hose.

However, after a bit of practice, you will learn to set a nominal setting which will result close to the temperature that you want, and you will learn to restrain yourself from large over-controlling of the valves.

When you can learn to control the water temperature in the shower as described above, you’re ready to go fly a jet.[/quote]

But remember, I don't know much about aviation, I'm
just a stupid fucking Queen's engineer, like Elon Musk.

[img width=500 height=307][/img]

We're both pretty stupid compared to an Air Canada pilot.

[Rookie Pilot]

I find it simply interesting the difference in reaction between the Asiana accident and this AC extremely near accident. They are EXACTLY the same -- except for a LITTLE bit of pavement. Complete luck.


Difference I see is, one is a foreign airline,


One is AC. Home of the "this wasn't an accident, it was a hard landing"


And this? Not a even hard landing to AC, I'm sure.

[Eric Janson]

[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=5364.msg13922#msg13922 date=1484511275]

I keep trying to teach people this.

[url=http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/FlyingAJet.htm]www.pittspecials.com/articles/FlyingAJet.htm[/url][/quote]

Good article - can't think of anything else to add.

I was just thinking about this incident and it's quite possible that both Pilots may have suffered a very subtle form of incapacitation. It would certainly explain why neither Pilot called for a go-around and why a number of SOPs were ignored and the landing checklist wasn't completed.

I believe that the Asiana FO sitting in the jumpseat did call for a go-around but was ignored by the Captain in training and the Instructor.

[Rookie Pilot]

[quote author=Eric Janson link=topic=5364.msg13925#msg13925 date=1484521399]
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=5364.msg13922#msg13922 date=1484511275]

I keep trying to teach people this.

[url=http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/FlyingAJet.htm]www.pittspecials.com/articles/FlyingAJet.htm[/url][/quote]

Good article - can't think of anything else to add.

I was just thinking about this incident and it's quite possible that both Pilots may have suffered a very subtle form of incapacitation. It would certainly explain why neither Pilot called for a go-around and why a number of SOPs were ignored and the landing checklist wasn't completed.

I believe that the Asiana FO sitting in the jumpseat did call for a go-around but was ignored by the Captain in training and the Instructor.
[/quote]


Both pilots?  Report says PF was actively engaged in dialog with ATC. if incapacitation, that wouldn't seem too likely. 

Suppose anything possible.