Mr Crunch...
Im still waiting for an accident report about a crash from shutting the fuel off in a me piston light twin, and turning it back on, and having the engine not start again, and then kaaablamo..
In fact we are all waiting.....
FYI the big difference between shutting off the fuel, and closing the throttle is I can shut the fuel off without anyone knowing, thus making the simulated emergency "real" in the PFs mind. When you reach up and pull the throttle, its pretty simple... well, unless your "BIG PISTONS"
Its like instrument training under the hood on a clear blue day... its kinda real,, but its not.
Forum Fight!!!
-
HiFlyChick
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 9:54 pm
Looking at various comments about shutting off fuel to an engine and the restart going ok so long as the prop is still windmilling....
Haven't done it, but I was wondering, about how long does the prop keep windmilling for in that type of situation? I've had the real thing, but it was a total catastrophic failure and thankfully the dome pressure and feathering spring did their job well, so I've not seen a windmilling prop with a shutdown engine
Haven't done it, but I was wondering, about how long does the prop keep windmilling for in that type of situation? I've had the real thing, but it was a total catastrophic failure and thankfully the dome pressure and feathering spring did their job well, so I've not seen a windmilling prop with a shutdown engine
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
When I had to shut down the O-540 on the BN2 it went full feather, like knife edge. It would kick over half a turn every once in a while, this was usually when I turned or hit some bumps. I had two hours to play with it O0
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
It is an aircraft certification requirement that you can
run the engine totally dry in flight, and get a restart
within X seconds for a carbureted engine, and Y seconds
for a fuel-injected engine, after fuel is restored.
I forget what X and Y are. I know that Y > X. Someone
can look them up in FAR part 23.
If you're flying homebuilt, all bets are off, but if you
are flying a certified aircraft, if you think you can't
safely turn the fuel off, it is NOT AIRWORTHY and
thus it is NOT LEGAL TO FLY and thus DON'T FLY IT.
I cannot count the number of times in my lifetime that
I have run an engine out of fuel, running a tank dry.
Let's say you have two tanks and no "BOTH" selection.
I'm sure an AvCan moderator would have 1/8 in each
of the tanks. Me, I would run one tank dry and have
1/4 in the other tank.
I fly C421B's and they have a nightmare of a fuel
system, and pretty complex engines (TCM GTSIO-520)
and I like to run the aux's bone dry. I do this in
cruise by carefully watching the fuel pressure gauge.
As soon as it starts to wiggle - it will do that BEFORE
the engine coughs - I switch back to the mains.
I have been flying a Maule M4-210C for 45 years now,
which admittedly isn't much compared to a glorious
AvCan moderator, or a TC Inspector. But it has no
"BOTH" selection, and I have run the TCM IO-360
engine dry on it many, many, many times over the
last 45 years. They always restart.
Feel free to drop a dime to TC Enforcement on me,
and complain to AvCan for that matter.
I have run many many other engines dry in flight,
and never had a problem when fuel was restored.
That is because they were airworthy. Unlike the
AvCan experts, I do not fly aircraft which are not
unairworthy.
run the engine totally dry in flight, and get a restart
within X seconds for a carbureted engine, and Y seconds
for a fuel-injected engine, after fuel is restored.
I forget what X and Y are. I know that Y > X. Someone
can look them up in FAR part 23.
If you're flying homebuilt, all bets are off, but if you
are flying a certified aircraft, if you think you can't
safely turn the fuel off, it is NOT AIRWORTHY and
thus it is NOT LEGAL TO FLY and thus DON'T FLY IT.
I cannot count the number of times in my lifetime that
I have run an engine out of fuel, running a tank dry.
Let's say you have two tanks and no "BOTH" selection.
I'm sure an AvCan moderator would have 1/8 in each
of the tanks. Me, I would run one tank dry and have
1/4 in the other tank.
I fly C421B's and they have a nightmare of a fuel
system, and pretty complex engines (TCM GTSIO-520)
and I like to run the aux's bone dry. I do this in
cruise by carefully watching the fuel pressure gauge.
As soon as it starts to wiggle - it will do that BEFORE
the engine coughs - I switch back to the mains.
I have been flying a Maule M4-210C for 45 years now,
which admittedly isn't much compared to a glorious
AvCan moderator, or a TC Inspector. But it has no
"BOTH" selection, and I have run the TCM IO-360
engine dry on it many, many, many times over the
last 45 years. They always restart.
Feel free to drop a dime to TC Enforcement on me,
and complain to AvCan for that matter.
I have run many many other engines dry in flight,
and never had a problem when fuel was restored.
That is because they were airworthy. Unlike the
AvCan experts, I do not fly aircraft which are not
unairworthy.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Funny story time.
Bob and I are climbing out in his old 421B. He's
dead tired, but flying (human factors lesson here).
The 421B always takes off and lands on the mains,
and the return line is to the mains (which for maximum
confusion are actually physically the tips) so the
result is that you always end up with more fuel in
the auxes than the mains, which is annoying.
You spend all your time, flying the 421B, trying to
empty the auxes, without overfilling the mains and
barfing pretty blue spray out the overflow. If you're
a 421B pilot and you've never done it, you're a liar :)
Anyways. Bob is tired as hell, we are climbing out.
Gear is up, climb power is set, good VMC. Through
1000 AGL I mention we should switch to AUX's - and
of course you do it ONE AT A TIME.
Only a complete lunatic or AvCan moderator or TC
Inspector would switch both engines at the same time.
Bob reaches down, and turns the left engine from MAIN
to OFF instead of AUX. I sit there with my arms crossed
thinking, "This is going to be fun!"
The left engine almost instantly quits. Windmilling but
it ain't pullling. Bob about jumps through the roof. I
start to laugh, despite what Harv Penner sternly told me
about laughter not being an approved critiquing method.
"Try switching the left engine back to main", I suggested,
gently retarding the left throttle. Hands moving very slowly.
From a control standpoint, there was nothing to worry
about. We had lots of airspeed and altitude. All you
have to do in that situation is let go of the flight control,
and the nose drops to your trimmed airspeed. You use
the rudder to keep it straight, and the dead foot tells
you what engine has failed.
Bob switched the left engine back to MAIN and it instantly
roared back to life - on low boost of course, after takeoff.
I didn't mess with high boost which pumps enough
fuel into the engine to make it quit, unless the engine
driven pump has failed.
There are a bunch of lessons to be learned from my
funny little story:
1) while it is legal (and in fact will be required by your
future employers) to fly fatigued, your performance is
decreased to the level of a drunk. Think about that.
2) Hand NEVER a blur in the cockpit. Never, ever, ever.
3) In fact, hands off the flight controls! Just like a Beggs
Mueller spin recovery. Let the nose drop, reduce the alpha
and the drag, keep the speed up. Remember, you trim for
an AIRSPEED which the aircraft will naturally seek.
4) If you like your engine, throttle back before fuel goes
back on again
5) Electric boost pump. Use it thoughtfully.
6) ONLY SWITCH ONE ENGINE AT A TIME
7) Look carefully at what your hand is doing on
the selector. Don't try to do it by memory. Hands
never move fast in the cockpit. If you watch any
of my surface acro videos, you will never ever see
my hands move fast.
Fast hands will kill you. Ask the ATR-72 pax over
in asia.
Bob and I are climbing out in his old 421B. He's
dead tired, but flying (human factors lesson here).
The 421B always takes off and lands on the mains,
and the return line is to the mains (which for maximum
confusion are actually physically the tips) so the
result is that you always end up with more fuel in
the auxes than the mains, which is annoying.
You spend all your time, flying the 421B, trying to
empty the auxes, without overfilling the mains and
barfing pretty blue spray out the overflow. If you're
a 421B pilot and you've never done it, you're a liar :)
Anyways. Bob is tired as hell, we are climbing out.
Gear is up, climb power is set, good VMC. Through
1000 AGL I mention we should switch to AUX's - and
of course you do it ONE AT A TIME.
Only a complete lunatic or AvCan moderator or TC
Inspector would switch both engines at the same time.
Bob reaches down, and turns the left engine from MAIN
to OFF instead of AUX. I sit there with my arms crossed
thinking, "This is going to be fun!"
The left engine almost instantly quits. Windmilling but
it ain't pullling. Bob about jumps through the roof. I
start to laugh, despite what Harv Penner sternly told me
about laughter not being an approved critiquing method.
"Try switching the left engine back to main", I suggested,
gently retarding the left throttle. Hands moving very slowly.
From a control standpoint, there was nothing to worry
about. We had lots of airspeed and altitude. All you
have to do in that situation is let go of the flight control,
and the nose drops to your trimmed airspeed. You use
the rudder to keep it straight, and the dead foot tells
you what engine has failed.
Bob switched the left engine back to MAIN and it instantly
roared back to life - on low boost of course, after takeoff.
I didn't mess with high boost which pumps enough
fuel into the engine to make it quit, unless the engine
driven pump has failed.
There are a bunch of lessons to be learned from my
funny little story:
1) while it is legal (and in fact will be required by your
future employers) to fly fatigued, your performance is
decreased to the level of a drunk. Think about that.
2) Hand NEVER a blur in the cockpit. Never, ever, ever.
3) In fact, hands off the flight controls! Just like a Beggs
Mueller spin recovery. Let the nose drop, reduce the alpha
and the drag, keep the speed up. Remember, you trim for
an AIRSPEED which the aircraft will naturally seek.
4) If you like your engine, throttle back before fuel goes
back on again
5) Electric boost pump. Use it thoughtfully.
6) ONLY SWITCH ONE ENGINE AT A TIME
7) Look carefully at what your hand is doing on
the selector. Don't try to do it by memory. Hands
never move fast in the cockpit. If you watch any
of my surface acro videos, you will never ever see
my hands move fast.
Fast hands will kill you. Ask the ATR-72 pax over
in asia.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]Fast hands will kill you. Ask the ATR-72 pax over in asia[/quote]
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAsia ... Flight_235]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAsia ... Flight_235[/url]
So many lessons here ...
Let's examine my previous assertion (which will make many
frown) that what works for one pilot in one place, will not
work for another pilot in another place.
In the funny story above, it was a complete non-event for
me to have an engine fail in a piston twin WITH NO AUTO-
FEATHER at 1,000 AGL.
However, on board the TransAsia 235 ATR-72, WITH AUTO-
FEATHER, everyone on board died after a very similar engine
failure during climbout, at 1500 AGL compared to my 1000
AGL. Despite them having a whole gaggle of proud, strutting
four-bars on board, jammed into the cockpit.
I will be attacked for being elitist - PM Hairdo Dolly and
David Suzuki will not like me - but evidence clearly suggests
that me having an engine fail at 1000 AGL in a piston twin
with no auto-feather, is a non-event. Yawn.
Meanwhile, an engine failure in a turbine twin WITH AUTO-
FEATHER was a fatal event for a flock of four-bars at 1500
AGL. Everyone on board died.
Those are the facts, ma'am.
What works for one person, might not work for another.
I find it disappointing when people pretend this is not
the truth, and lives end up being sacrificed on some
weird altar of political correctness, which trumps safety,
for some reason that I cannot ever comprehend.
Assertion: One good pilot in the cockpit is better than
four bad ones, even if their shoulders are plastered with
gold bars.
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAsia ... Flight_235]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAsia ... Flight_235[/url]
So many lessons here ...
Let's examine my previous assertion (which will make many
frown) that what works for one pilot in one place, will not
work for another pilot in another place.
In the funny story above, it was a complete non-event for
me to have an engine fail in a piston twin WITH NO AUTO-
FEATHER at 1,000 AGL.
However, on board the TransAsia 235 ATR-72, WITH AUTO-
FEATHER, everyone on board died after a very similar engine
failure during climbout, at 1500 AGL compared to my 1000
AGL. Despite them having a whole gaggle of proud, strutting
four-bars on board, jammed into the cockpit.
I will be attacked for being elitist - PM Hairdo Dolly and
David Suzuki will not like me - but evidence clearly suggests
that me having an engine fail at 1000 AGL in a piston twin
with no auto-feather, is a non-event. Yawn.
Meanwhile, an engine failure in a turbine twin WITH AUTO-
FEATHER was a fatal event for a flock of four-bars at 1500
AGL. Everyone on board died.
Those are the facts, ma'am.
What works for one person, might not work for another.
I find it disappointing when people pretend this is not
the truth, and lives end up being sacrificed on some
weird altar of political correctness, which trumps safety,
for some reason that I cannot ever comprehend.
Assertion: One good pilot in the cockpit is better than
four bad ones, even if their shoulders are plastered with
gold bars.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Fourth post in a row. I know. Shut up.
But I just can't help mentioning how dangerous
a GUMP check is, on final.
Don't know if anyone here knows Glenn French -
he's the CFI and PE at Cornwall Aviation, Ontario.
Like me, he insists on NO FUEL SELECTOR CHANGES
below 1,000 feet. Glenn had a lesson on this, from
a flight test candidate, that switched tanks (hands
a blur) on final during his GUMP check and switched
the fuel off.
Ouch.
No touching the fuel selector below 1000 AGL,
regardless of what anyone tells you.
Only touch the fuel selector at an altitude that
you would be happy to handle an engine failure
at.
And after switching tanks, you spend the next
few seconds staring at the fuel pressure gauge.
You don't like what you see, switch back to the
previous selection.
These are lessons learned from many decades
of flying. Ignore them if you wish, because they
are probably contrary to what you are being taught,
which is wrong.
But I just can't help mentioning how dangerous
a GUMP check is, on final.
Don't know if anyone here knows Glenn French -
he's the CFI and PE at Cornwall Aviation, Ontario.
Like me, he insists on NO FUEL SELECTOR CHANGES
below 1,000 feet. Glenn had a lesson on this, from
a flight test candidate, that switched tanks (hands
a blur) on final during his GUMP check and switched
the fuel off.
Ouch.
No touching the fuel selector below 1000 AGL,
regardless of what anyone tells you.
Only touch the fuel selector at an altitude that
you would be happy to handle an engine failure
at.
And after switching tanks, you spend the next
few seconds staring at the fuel pressure gauge.
You don't like what you see, switch back to the
previous selection.
These are lessons learned from many decades
of flying. Ignore them if you wish, because they
are probably contrary to what you are being taught,
which is wrong.
-
Rookie Pilot
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:44 am
Colonel Sanders wrote: Fourth post in a row. I know. Shut up.
But I just can't help mentioning how dangerous
a GUMP check is, on final.
Don't know if anyone here knows Glenn French -
he's the CFI and PE at Cornwall Aviation, Ontario.
Like me, he insists on NO FUEL SELECTOR CHANGES
below 1,000 feet. Glenn had a lesson on this, from
a flight test candidate, that switched tanks (hands
a blur) on final during his GUMP check and switched
the fuel off.
Ouch.
No touching the fuel selector below 1000 AGL,
regardless of what anyone tells you.
Only touch the fuel selector at an altitude that
you would be happy to handle an engine failure
at.
And after switching tanks, you spend the next
few seconds staring at the fuel pressure gauge.
You don't like what you see, switch back to the
previous selection.
These are lessons learned from many decades
of flying. Ignore them if you wish, because they
are probably contrary to what you are being taught,
which is wrong.
This is very sound advice I've never read anywhere.
Edit. All those posts were excellent advice.
-
CpnCrunch
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:46 pm
Chuck Ellsworth wrote: O.K. Cpn Crunch I will quit posting here for the good of the forum.
So you go ahead and bring it back to what it should be.
Sorry, that is not what I intended. Both you and the Colonel post really useful info (the Colonel's 4 posts here are excellent). I'll shut up now.
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