The NDB approach.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Just thought I will make some comments about the NDB approach and clarify some misconceptions about the safety factors when flying these approaches.

What motivated me to post this is we have a guy here who keeps making uninformed comments about the safety and difficulty of these approaches.

Many moons ago I flew for Austin Airways for a number of years in their 705 operation.

We had scheduled daily runs starting in Timmins Ont. and usually ended in  Povungnituk Quebec.

The route was Timmins - Moosonee - Fort George - Port Harrison -  Povungnituk - Sugluk - Cape Dorset - Povungnituk.

We flew this route 12 months of the year using DC3's and PBY's.

All the approaches were NDB and most were off airport.

I have done thousands of NDB approaches in every condition known to man and NEVER EVER found one to be dangerous nor difficult.

So I guess what I am trying to say is ignore people who are ignorant of a given subject and use common sense....

IF FUCKIN NDB APPROACHES WERE DANGEROUS OR DIFFICULT THEY WOULD NOT BE APPROVED FOR IFR FLYING.

There now I feel better!! ;D ;D ;D

[CpnCrunch]

Are you referring to me here? I've never said that NDB approaches were the most dangerous thing in aviation, or anything like that. I've never even thought such a thing. I'm not exactly sure where CdnPilot77 got that idea, but it certainly wasn't from me.


Anyway, if arguing with yourself makes you feel good, have at it.

[Colonel]

I've done thousands of NDB approaches - most
of them before Crunchie came to Canada, and
starting renting a 150.

It was the only approach to my home airport.

I remember in 1996, doing the NDB approach
on the edges of Hurricane Fran.  God knows
how I did it without the counsel of Crunchie.

[Cdnpilot77]

[size=1em]Crunch, I am going to stay away from making this personal, but your messages me to repeatedly stated that without a GPS backup an ADF should not be relied upon that to do so was irresponsible to my airplane, passengers and fellow crew, paraphrased of course.  That they could point to a distant thunderstorm or have any number of other discrepancies.  Here's the thing, any other nav aid, including GPS, can have issues.  OR they could work perfectly to fly an approach to minimums with no issue.  GPS is great for situational awareness sure, but the blind faith many put in them and discount decades of experience is frightening.  [/size]
[size=1em][font=verdana]The funny thing is, on my initial IFR flight test I did my hold over the beacon and transitioned to an NDB non-precision approach and guess what, the ADF failed on the approach...no joke. The airplane I did the ride in didn't have a GPS. Initiated the missed, climbed out, tuned another nav aid and off we went. No bent tin, no hurt feelings and a 250hr pilot was able to execute this without input from the examiner or removing the hood.  I think I got a 4 :) . [/font][font=verdana]I have had GPS (multiple times) and FMS (once) fail on me and not just losing signal, like full black screen, and not usually at the most opportune times.  They are electrical parts, they will fail at some point, but not with the regularity where we should be afraid of any of them. [/font][/size]

[CpnCrunch]

[quote author=Cdnpilot77 link=topic=1295.msg4933#msg4933 date=1449631996]
[size=1em]Crunch, I am going to stay away from making this personal, but your messages me to repeatedly stated that without a GPS backup an ADF should not be relied upon that to do so was irresponsible to my airplane, passengers and fellow crew, paraphrased of course.  That they could point to a distant thunderstorm or have any number of other discrepancies.  Here's the thing, any other nav aid, including GPS, can have issues.  OR they could work perfectly to fly an approach to minimums with no issue.  GPS is great for situational awareness sure, but the blind faith many put in them and discount decades of experience is frightening.  [/size]
[size=1em][font=verdana]The funny thing is, on my initial IFR flight test I did my hold over the beacon and transitioned to an NDB non-precision approach and guess what, the ADF failed on the approach...no joke. The airplane I did the ride in didn't have a GPS. Initiated the missed, climbed out, tuned another nav aid and off we went. No bent tin, no hurt feelings and a 250hr pilot was able to execute this without input from the examiner or removing the hood.  I think I got a 4 :) . [/font][font=verdana]I have had GPS (multiple times) and FMS (once) fail on me and not just losing signal, like full black screen, and not usually at the most opportune times.  They are electrical parts, they will fail at some point, but not with the regularity where we should be afraid of any of them. [/font][/size]
[/quote]


I'm just looking through my PMs to you, and I think you're overstating what I said. In the end we both agreed that it's best to use all the tools at the pilot's disposal. It's true that an ADF has a lot of potential errors, including pointing at a distant thunderstorm, and in my experience GPS is generally more reliable than the ADF.

[Cdnpilot77]

And I have had the opposite....I have had GPS fail much more than ADF, which aside from the flight test, I've never had an ADF fail, granted I only did a handful of approaches every year and now mostly do overlays where needed and mostly get angry if it's not an ILS, but I digress.  I have seen where NDB's were offline or the signal was weak, [font=Verdana]Brantford Ontario used to be notorious for having an NDB that could only be tracked within 10miles of it, b[/font]ut I would never be so deep into an approach where this would be an issue getting out of it, if it doesn't look right, you get out.


Where people have the problems is when they still try to push this or believe that the GPS will guide them through the whole thing even if the ADF isn't tracking properly, which then becomes a homemade approach if there is no overlay. I've had databases incorrect straight from Honeywell, I've had screen go black on an rnav departure, I've had an f/o load the FMS incorrectly and I've had lost signal numerous times at various stages of flight with various equipment.  While it's true complete reliance on one thing when you have multiple back ups is not using common sense, flying an NDB approach is not the fire breathing dragon it is made out to be.

[Colonel]

Decades ago, when I taught IFR, the ADF
was the dreaded navaid - esp tracking
outbound with a crosswind.  People
really got themselves worked up over
them.


I had a really simple receipe for the NDB
approach:

After intercepting the final approach track
inbound, home to the beacon to get a good
station passage.  Fly the banana.

After passing the FAF inbound, turn to the
final approach track and hold that.  Ignore
any crosswind.

You had better see the airport at the miss
time minus one minute, because with an
MDA of 500 feet, that's all the descent rate
you're going to want.

It lacks elegance, but gosh, it worked well
and pilots didn't make any mistakes.

I had an elegant addition to the above -
make one correction (double the error)
at one minute past the FAF - but I gave
up, because pilots always turned the
WRONG WAY and made the crosswind worse.

Oh well, time for Crunchie to lecture me
about how I did it all wrong, flying for
decades before he came to Canada  ::)


[img width=500 height=339][/img]

[Liquid Charlie]

Damn Colonel you are the first guy ever who revealed my secret. I have sat there and watched so many people fuck up a NDB approach because they (as you can say "the worst thing you can do with a hard-on is fuck with it because then it's gone) would start chasing needles and not get a good station passage and there the runway was ---- GONE --- and an approach with a beacon on the field. [b]How could one possibly fuck that up. [/b]


Chuck, flying the coast of the Bays with Austin's I'm sure you were well acquainted with "operational" minimums  >:D  [font=verdana]  [/font]

[font=verdana][size=1em]One of the things that bothers me the worst is the lose of comradeship amounst pilots these days. It's turning into a group of little kids pointing fingers and constantly issues with what people do out there. I for one miss the days when people actually helped one another, would lend equipment and stick together as a group of pilots socializing drinking fucking fighting and working as a band of brothers. Now, it seems that it's bad to mix with pilots of other companies. I have witnessed  first hand where brothers have boxed people in on the ramp, blown dust/snow and gravel all over aircraft when there was an option not to. I will however admit that a ray of sunshine shines through. My hat is off to a Hawker crew in YTL for their help and caring the day. Maybe there is still hope yet.  [/size][/font] :D 

[Colonel]

[quote]and an approach with a beacon on the field. [b]How could one possibly fuck that up?![/b][/quote]

I know.

[CpnCrunch]

[quote author=Cdnpilot77 link=topic=1295.msg4938#msg4938 date=1449636016]
Where people have the problems is when they still try to push this or believe that the GPS will guide them through the whole thing even if the ADF isn't tracking properly, which then becomes a homemade approach if there is no overlay. I've had databases incorrect straight from Honeywell, I've had screen go black on an rnav departure, I've had an f/o load the FMS incorrectly and I've had lost signal numerous times at various stages of flight with various equipment.  While it's true complete reliance on one thing when you have multiple back ups is not using common sense, flying an NDB approach is not the fire breathing dragon it is made out to be.
[/quote]


I completely agree. I started my instrument training long before there were any GPS approaches, and I did it all using the needles and never had a problem. I'm just saying that ADFs aren't the most reliable technology.