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Squaretail
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Nark wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:59 pm
I like pointing out “our fair share” of taxes. Top 2% pay something around 70% of taxes collected.

As you said, 60% don’t pay taxes at all.

I’m waiting for the fair share…
Its easy to throw numbers like that around if one wants to feel sorry for yourself, its like the old joke though that's punch line ends with "its only you and me doing all the work, and you're reading the internet right now!"

If we're talking about income taxes, when one thinks about it, yes, 40% of the people paying all the income taxes is about right. Approximately 20% of the population are under age to tax, and about 20% of the population is retired. With that bottom twenty percent, well you people who have kids can thank those of us who didn't have kids for supporting them all those years. You're welcome. But I digress. So of the remaining 60% a third of those aren't paying taxes of the income sort. The bottom bunch, the poor, don't earn much money, but in the big scheme of things don't cost much money. However part of that working age non tax paying bunch are people who manage to avoid taxes - they don't earn a traditional income like the rest of us. Unfortunately our government likes to protect those people's ability to not pay taxes, since once you get that much money you can buy a lot of political influence.

Arguably if you are in the top income tax bracket you're probably paying too much tax, however if you are in the top 2% of income earners, it probably means you aren't in the top 2% of wealthy people. Think about why Warren Buffet's secretary pays more taxes than he does.

When it comes to "fair share" one should remember that one should pay proportionate to how one benefits. For an aviation tie in, when it comes to say, paying for ATC, should the regular pleb pay for most of it, who maybe can afford one or two flights a year, or should the guy who can zip around on a private jet every day pay for more of it?


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Colonel
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I don’t have a problem with people who freeload.

But I have a problem with them having a vote.

If you want to vote, show up with government photo ID with your current address and a W-2 or 1040 that shows you paid $10,000 of income tax last year.

A vote is not worthless and must be earned.

$10k is peanuts. You would vomit on your shoes if you knew how much Federal and State Income tax I pay, and many Canadians think I’m not too bright, so they must be doing a whole lot better.
45 / 47 => 95 3/4%
Nark
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It’s a little dated, but hasn’t changed dramatically:
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https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... ncome-tax/
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Colonel
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From that data, people earning more than us$200K paid 20.6 + 17.9 + 20.4 = 59% of all income taxes.

That's 0.1 + 0.8 + 3.6 = 4.5% of people filing tax returns. Many people don't.

Anyways. 4.5% of people filing income tax returns are carrying 59% of the load.

How are we not doing our "fair share" compared to the other 95.5% who are only paying 41%?

I suspect it has gotten worse since 2015.

Looking at the bottom end ... people earning less than $100k pay 14.1 + 4 + 1.4 = 19.5% of all income tax.

But they comprise 21.8 + 17.6 + 43.8 = 83.2% of the people filing tax returns.

So, 83.2% of the people filing tax returns (that declare under $100k) are paying only 19.5% of the income tax collected.

That's worth repeating:

Over 80% are paying less than 20% of the tax collected. Are they paying their "fair share"?
45 / 47 => 95 3/4%
Squaretail
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Over 80% are paying less than 20% of the tax collected. Are they paying their "fair share"?
Most of that 80%, yes. While they don't contribute much by earning, they technically pay a way larger portion of their available wealth in tax - because its not just income taxes upon which the government is funded. They get less back for their money. Consider what the government spends your tax dollars on: if someone doesn't have money, they also can't take advantage of all the things that one can if you're in the next bracket up, and so on and so on. The big problem in income tax collection are the small proportion of the "non-payers" as you were, that manage to play the system to still increase their wealth. For instance if you got lots of money to pass on to your kids, you can shelter most of that from taxation, and those recipients can take all the advantages that the government provides to increase their personal wealth and pay none of the taxes to support it. Combined with the real estate and investment world, one can shelter money by the ton. So are that 80% paying their fair share? Some are, some aren't. Specifics matter if you really care about fair taxation. I'll say it again though, regardless of where you sit in terms of income tax brackets, you're probably paying more than your fair share, if income tax brackets are something you have to care about. I fully agree that the folks who aren't paying income taxes should probably be paying more tax in some form.
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Colonel
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They get less back for their money
What?! They don’t pay any taxes and they probably get more from the government than I do with subsidies and handouts.

They’re freeloaders. And I don’t have a problem with that. Someone is allowed to be lazy and live off the government social safety net.

But they goddamned well shouldn’t vote if they do.

Odd that something so simple is obfuscated….

Consider the extremes. People like me pay X in taxes and we get Y from the government where X > Y. Trust me when I tell you the government could pay for a hooker to blow me every morning I went to work and they would still win.

At the other extreme are people who contribute A in taxes and receive B from the government. A < B. A could be zero and quite possibly is for the majority. They are by definition getting something for nothing. Freeloaders who don’t earn a vote.

Somewhere in between the two groups, the numbers are the same. The people above get a vote. The people that are below and don’t contribute, don’t get a vote.

This is very simple. If you are not a productive member of society, you don’t get to control it.

A vote is not worthless and must be earned.
45 / 47 => 95 3/4%
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Colonel
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Let’s say you’re driving in your car - that you paid for - and you pick up a hitchhiker who says you are not doing what you want to today - you are going to do what I want, with the car you paid for.

That’s called car-jacking and pretty much describes our current government.

Hitchhikers are freeloaders who don’t contribute. You know, the 60% of people that pay no taxes.
45 / 47 => 95 3/4%
Squaretail
Posts: 476
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What?! They don’t pay any taxes and they probably get more from the government than I do with subsidies and handouts.
I'm not sure what group of people you're upset at. This sounds like you're upset with the current corporate welfare. I agree with you, we should stop government subsidies to large corporations.

Maybe you're angry at churches and religious organizations? Yes those free loaders should start paying taxes.

What does the government not do that you want? What do you think other people are getting from it that you're not? I mean you seem to be doing well in life, do you feel you are disadvantaged in some way?

If you're worried about poor people voting, they already have poor turn outs (pun intended). Biggest turn outs are among retired folks. Are you upset at them voting if they're not generating income? Them freeloading children already don't get to vote there's a third of that sixty percent that's already taken care of - the world already works partly how you think it should! Voter turn outs are already primarily middle class and up people, the working poor can't afford to get a shift off from the fry-o-lator. There are already enough laws that make it tougher for a person of no means to vote.

Out of curiosity, do you get to vote where you live? Or do you come back to Canada?
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Colonel
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Despite attempts to confuse the issue, it’s very simple.

If you are not a productive member of society, you haven’t earned a vote.

Feel free to be lazy, don’t work and take advantage of the social safety network and sponge off the government. But don’t tell the rest of us what to do if you’re a freeloader.

Are you ok with being car-jacked by a hitchhiker? That’s what a freeloader with a vote is.
45 / 47 => 95 3/4%
Squaretail
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:21 pm
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If you are not a productive member of society, you haven’t earned a vote.
That maybe make you feel good to say, but specifics matter. Should it be governed by how much is on your T4? Or maybe you think there should be some sort of panel who decides? Not so simple at all. What do you define as being "productive"?

Have you been reading Starship Troopers again?
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