Simple airplane; rough definition: anything that is flown single pilot. Again, it also depends on the situation. Flow checks work well for a professional pilot that flys a certain aircraft type frequently; I understand that the majority of checks done in the fighter community are either flow checks or from memory.
On the other hand, recreational pilots, who fly once a month or less would do well to make heavier use of checklists.
Rules, Regulations, SOP's etc.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]Simple airplane; rough definition: anything that is flown single pilot[/quote]
Interesting.
[quote]recreational pilots, who fly once a month or less would do well to make heavier use of checklists[/quote]
Fascinating question - what [i]should[/i] an FTU
checklist, look like for (eg) the mighty 172?
I can understand that it could be construed as
"safe", to have a lengthy "do-list" (not a checklist)
for ground stuff, like walkaround, startup, runup
and before takeoff.
But I must wonder: what items on a 172 truly
need to be checked in the air, for a pre-landing
check, or downwind closed circuit?
Assuming that the FTU student didn't play with
the mags, master, mixture or fuel selector (which
is certainly the case for closed circuits), all he
really needs to do is pull the carb heat on, if
the 172 is older than he is. One item.
And if he's flying a modern injected 172, no
carb heat but electric boost pump, which is
off for normal ops, so [u]nothing[/u] to check.
Interesting.
[quote]recreational pilots, who fly once a month or less would do well to make heavier use of checklists[/quote]
Fascinating question - what [i]should[/i] an FTU
checklist, look like for (eg) the mighty 172?
I can understand that it could be construed as
"safe", to have a lengthy "do-list" (not a checklist)
for ground stuff, like walkaround, startup, runup
and before takeoff.
But I must wonder: what items on a 172 truly
need to be checked in the air, for a pre-landing
check, or downwind closed circuit?
Assuming that the FTU student didn't play with
the mags, master, mixture or fuel selector (which
is certainly the case for closed circuits), all he
really needs to do is pull the carb heat on, if
the 172 is older than he is. One item.
And if he's flying a modern injected 172, no
carb heat but electric boost pump, which is
off for normal ops, so [u]nothing[/u] to check.
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mcrit
FTU checklists should be based on the normal and emergency sections of the POH, just like any checklist.
There are some pretty clear cut cases WRT what checks should be memory checks (engine fire on start and other critical sequences where the pilot does not have time to flip through a checklist) and which checks should be done with a checklist (Pre-start and other longer sequences where the pilot has time to get out and action a checklist).
WRT what items need to be checked on a 172 on downwind; you are correct that master, mags, etc [i]should[/i] be good to go without a check. However, not everything is always as it [i]should[/i] be. I.e. communism [i]should[/i] work and TC [i]should[/i] be a support for Canadian aviation. Given that checking the master, mags, etc only takes about 3 seconds (as a flow check) its a worthwhile check.
There are some pretty clear cut cases WRT what checks should be memory checks (engine fire on start and other critical sequences where the pilot does not have time to flip through a checklist) and which checks should be done with a checklist (Pre-start and other longer sequences where the pilot has time to get out and action a checklist).
WRT what items need to be checked on a 172 on downwind; you are correct that master, mags, etc [i]should[/i] be good to go without a check. However, not everything is always as it [i]should[/i] be. I.e. communism [i]should[/i] work and TC [i]should[/i] be a support for Canadian aviation. Given that checking the master, mags, etc only takes about 3 seconds (as a flow check) its a worthwhile check.
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cloudrunner
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 6:03 pm
[quote author=mcrit link=topic=131.msg910#msg910 date=1434408307]
FTU checklists should be based on the normal and emergency sections of the POH, just like any checklist.
There are some pretty clear cut cases WRT what checks should be memory checks (engine fire on start and other critical sequences where the pilot does not have time to flip through a checklist) and which checks should be done with a checklist (Pre-start and other longer sequences where the pilot has time to get out and action a checklist).
WRT what items need to be checked on a 172 on downwind; you are correct that master, mags, etc [i]should[/i] be good to go without a check. However, not everything is always as it [i]should[/i] be. I.e. communism [i]should[/i] work and TC [i]should[/i] be a support for Canadian aviation. Given that checking the master, mags, etc only takes about 3 seconds (as a flow check) its a worthwhile check.
[/quote]I think you have described it pretty good here. There are some ground items and troubleshooting things that can be worked through with a checklist at the appropriate times but I see no reason why a top of climb/cruise and pre-landing flow cannot be taught to students right from the get-go. 5 year olds can learn to read, why can't adults learn a pattern of 10 items for every airplane they fly?
FTU checklists should be based on the normal and emergency sections of the POH, just like any checklist.
There are some pretty clear cut cases WRT what checks should be memory checks (engine fire on start and other critical sequences where the pilot does not have time to flip through a checklist) and which checks should be done with a checklist (Pre-start and other longer sequences where the pilot has time to get out and action a checklist).
WRT what items need to be checked on a 172 on downwind; you are correct that master, mags, etc [i]should[/i] be good to go without a check. However, not everything is always as it [i]should[/i] be. I.e. communism [i]should[/i] work and TC [i]should[/i] be a support for Canadian aviation. Given that checking the master, mags, etc only takes about 3 seconds (as a flow check) its a worthwhile check.
[/quote]I think you have described it pretty good here. There are some ground items and troubleshooting things that can be worked through with a checklist at the appropriate times but I see no reason why a top of climb/cruise and pre-landing flow cannot be taught to students right from the get-go. 5 year olds can learn to read, why can't adults learn a pattern of 10 items for every airplane they fly?
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mmm...bacon
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 2:19 am
Maybe they do, and this whole discussion is just stemming from a strawman?
or, alternatively,
Maybe they don't/can't because they don't fly often enough to engrain the habit?
or, alternatively,
Maybe they don't/can't because they don't fly often enough to engrain the habit?
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:46 pm
[quote author=Colonel link=topic=131.msg983#msg983 date=1434557165]What they're reading is a "how to fly" book.[/quote]
"Same way we do everything else in ze German army: with ze book of instructions!"
[img]http://pxhst.co/avaxhome/19/2d/00102d19_medium.jpeg[/img]
(Apologies if I'm the only one who's seen that movie)
"Same way we do everything else in ze German army: with ze book of instructions!"
[img]http://pxhst.co/avaxhome/19/2d/00102d19_medium.jpeg[/img]
(Apologies if I'm the only one who's seen that movie)
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praveen4143
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:57 am
[quote="Colonel"]
[/quote]
Hey Colonel, you need to lip sync better on your videos.. Maybe start practising in front of a mirror with the song playing in the background? O0
OK jokes aside, my $0.02 is checklists are acceptable if they're brief, to the point similar to that one page checklist for that big twin there and used only when you're stationary so doing run ups or start up where there's no inherent dangers.. Otherwise flow is the best!
Maybe I'm a bit of a please everyone guy ::) :P
[/quote]
Hey Colonel, you need to lip sync better on your videos.. Maybe start practising in front of a mirror with the song playing in the background? O0
OK jokes aside, my $0.02 is checklists are acceptable if they're brief, to the point similar to that one page checklist for that big twin there and used only when you're stationary so doing run ups or start up where there's no inherent dangers.. Otherwise flow is the best!
Maybe I'm a bit of a please everyone guy ::) :P
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]flow is the best![/quote]
I'm not saying you have to do a flow
in the air.
In the air, you could do
- a really short, essential checklist
- a flow
- GBUMPFH
I am have no religious affiliation with
any of them.
I just think it's a really bad idea for pilots
to have their heads down for a long period
of time when they are flying an aircraft at
low altitude with many other aircraft nearby.
Call me crazy, but ...
I tell people to keep their head up when
they are playing hockey, riding a motorcycle
in traffic, or flying an airplane.
Look outside. I know it's a terribly old-fashioned
idea, but plenty of people are going to die during
the rest of this year from mid-air collisions, and I
know the reaction from people is that they need
more toys in the cockpit to deal with this, which
means they will spend more time looking inside.
Sigh.
I'm not saying you have to do a flow
in the air.
In the air, you could do
- a really short, essential checklist
- a flow
- GBUMPFH
I am have no religious affiliation with
any of them.
I just think it's a really bad idea for pilots
to have their heads down for a long period
of time when they are flying an aircraft at
low altitude with many other aircraft nearby.
Call me crazy, but ...
I tell people to keep their head up when
they are playing hockey, riding a motorcycle
in traffic, or flying an airplane.
Look outside. I know it's a terribly old-fashioned
idea, but plenty of people are going to die during
the rest of this year from mid-air collisions, and I
know the reaction from people is that they need
more toys in the cockpit to deal with this, which
means they will spend more time looking inside.
Sigh.
-
praveen4143
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:57 am
[quote author=Colonel link=topic=131.msg1061#msg1061 date=1434788831]
[quote]flow is the best![/quote]
Call me crazy, but ...
I tell people to keep their head up when
they are playing hockey, riding a motorcycle
in traffic, or flying an airplane.
Look outside. I know it's a terribly old-fashioned
idea, but plenty of people are going to die during
the rest of this year from mid-air collisions, and I
know the reaction from people is that they need
more toys in the cockpit to deal with this, which
means they will spend more time looking inside.
Sigh.
[/quote]
I thought making ACTPA calls made you safe and not having to look outside and that approaching tower at 900 AGL would yell out on the radio that it's conflicting with us?? /S
I agree with head outside the window! Especially all those glass cockpit folks! Play with your toys and video games before you line up on the runway then it's eyes outside all the time!
[quote]flow is the best![/quote]
Call me crazy, but ...
I tell people to keep their head up when
they are playing hockey, riding a motorcycle
in traffic, or flying an airplane.
Look outside. I know it's a terribly old-fashioned
idea, but plenty of people are going to die during
the rest of this year from mid-air collisions, and I
know the reaction from people is that they need
more toys in the cockpit to deal with this, which
means they will spend more time looking inside.
Sigh.
[/quote]
I thought making ACTPA calls made you safe and not having to look outside and that approaching tower at 900 AGL would yell out on the radio that it's conflicting with us?? /S
I agree with head outside the window! Especially all those glass cockpit folks! Play with your toys and video games before you line up on the runway then it's eyes outside all the time!
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