There are a lot of pilots who advises others to follow the rules and regulations and SOP's when flying to ensure they are flying safely.
How do you choose who's rules, regulations , SOP's will ensure maximum safety?
For instance you are ferrying an aircraft from Somolia to say Moose Jaw Sask. and have to land in ten different countries.
The aircraft is U.S. registered and you are a Canadian do you need to intimately know and follow the rules of every country you fly over or land in?
As for SOP's lets say the airplane is a Navajo what companies SOP's do you follow to fly the thing?
Rules, Regulations, SOP's etc.
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cloudrunner
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 6:03 pm
[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=131.msg259#msg259 date=1432572505]
There are a lot of pilots who advises others to follow the rules and regulations and SOP's when flying to ensure they are flying safely.
How do you choose who's rules, regulations , SOP's will [u][b]ensure maximum safety[/b][/u]?
[/quote]As CP of a middle east float company a few years ago, I was bombarded by the owner (Accountable Manager) for several weeks because he was flipped out we weren't using checklists in C208 amphibs operating single pilot. I explained to him that it's a straight forward airplane and that there is no time to be screwing around with checklists while operating VFR with one pilot in busy airspace and amongst skyscrapers. I explained that we use flow patterns and I showed him how I personally do mine by touching each item in a set pattern. He said that our ops manual showed that we operate by checklists and I told him I don't quite know what to say, other than we should change the Ops Man. He hounded me after flying with some of the other guys until I glued checklists to the yokes and told all the pilots that if they had him on board and didn't touch the checklist 5 times per flight, they were fired. Had nothing to do with safety, only CYA for the company which, in the case of the owner, had it's head in it's ass (and still does by all accounts)
There are a lot of pilots who advises others to follow the rules and regulations and SOP's when flying to ensure they are flying safely.
How do you choose who's rules, regulations , SOP's will [u][b]ensure maximum safety[/b][/u]?
[/quote]As CP of a middle east float company a few years ago, I was bombarded by the owner (Accountable Manager) for several weeks because he was flipped out we weren't using checklists in C208 amphibs operating single pilot. I explained to him that it's a straight forward airplane and that there is no time to be screwing around with checklists while operating VFR with one pilot in busy airspace and amongst skyscrapers. I explained that we use flow patterns and I showed him how I personally do mine by touching each item in a set pattern. He said that our ops manual showed that we operate by checklists and I told him I don't quite know what to say, other than we should change the Ops Man. He hounded me after flying with some of the other guys until I glued checklists to the yokes and told all the pilots that if they had him on board and didn't touch the checklist 5 times per flight, they were fired. Had nothing to do with safety, only CYA for the company which, in the case of the owner, had it's head in it's ass (and still does by all accounts)
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Barneydhc82
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:32 pm
Cloudy: I heard about that operation and was wondering; sight-seeing flights when all you had was water on one side and sand on the other! That sounded like something PG would dream up
Barney
Barney
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]we use flow patterns ... our ops manual showed that we operate by checklists [/quote]
I've fought that battle before. I don't
use checklists in any of the many different
types that I fly.
First thing is to make your checklist match
your cockpit flow, so that everyone is doing
the checklist without referring to it.
Next is to have the checklist in sight of the
pilot (as you did).
Now, no one can argue that you aren't using
checklists - the pilot is doing what the checklist
says, and the checklist is in plain view of the
pilot.
Some dickweed might claim that the pilots
aren't referring to the checklists often enough,
but tough titty - the aircraft is being flown IAW
with the checklist.
I've fought that battle before. I don't
use checklists in any of the many different
types that I fly.
First thing is to make your checklist match
your cockpit flow, so that everyone is doing
the checklist without referring to it.
Next is to have the checklist in sight of the
pilot (as you did).
Now, no one can argue that you aren't using
checklists - the pilot is doing what the checklist
says, and the checklist is in plain view of the
pilot.
Some dickweed might claim that the pilots
aren't referring to the checklists often enough,
but tough titty - the aircraft is being flown IAW
with the checklist.
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HiFlyChick
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 9:54 pm
Not sure I understand your opposition to checklists... I use them with every plane I fly (although sometimes I'll do the flow and then follow up with the checklist to confirm I haven't forgotten anything). Especially single pilot and/or after a long day (or night), it's easy to forget something critical.
I haven't flown an amphib C208 before so I can't comment on its need for checklists or not....
I haven't flown an amphib C208 before so I can't comment on its need for checklists or not....
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
I don't use a checklist to go to the bathroom,
get dressed in the morning, drive a car, ride
a motorcycle, or fly an airplane.
You can end up just as dead on a motorcycle
as you can in an airplane. Would you suggest
people start using a checklist on a motorcycle,
head down, riding into an intersection?
That's suicidal. Head up and look outside.
Same thing applies in an airplane.
get dressed in the morning, drive a car, ride
a motorcycle, or fly an airplane.
You can end up just as dead on a motorcycle
as you can in an airplane. Would you suggest
people start using a checklist on a motorcycle,
head down, riding into an intersection?
That's suicidal. Head up and look outside.
Same thing applies in an airplane.
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cloudrunner
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 6:03 pm
[quote author=Colonel link=topic=131.msg282#msg282 date=1432657498]
[quote]we use flow patterns ... our ops manual showed that we operate by checklists [/quote]
First thing is to make your checklist match
your cockpit flow, so that everyone is doing
the checklist without referring to it.
Next is to have the checklist in sight of the
pilot (as you did).
Now, no one can argue that you aren't using
checklists - the pilot is doing what the checklist
says, and the checklist is in plain view of the
pilot.[/quote] This was exactly my argument. I didn't hear any more about it after that and was more than happy to get out of the M/E shortly thereafter.
[quote author=HiFlyChick link=topic=131.msg287#msg287 date=1432665318]I haven't flown an amphib C208 before so I can't comment on its need for checklists or not....[/quote] I have spent my whole career in S/E seaplanes and can't imagine flying a machine that requires a checklist, or a copilot to discuss it with for that matter.
[quote]we use flow patterns ... our ops manual showed that we operate by checklists [/quote]
First thing is to make your checklist match
your cockpit flow, so that everyone is doing
the checklist without referring to it.
Next is to have the checklist in sight of the
pilot (as you did).
Now, no one can argue that you aren't using
checklists - the pilot is doing what the checklist
says, and the checklist is in plain view of the
pilot.[/quote] This was exactly my argument. I didn't hear any more about it after that and was more than happy to get out of the M/E shortly thereafter.
[quote author=HiFlyChick link=topic=131.msg287#msg287 date=1432665318]I haven't flown an amphib C208 before so I can't comment on its need for checklists or not....[/quote] I have spent my whole career in S/E seaplanes and can't imagine flying a machine that requires a checklist, or a copilot to discuss it with for that matter.
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Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]I have spent my whole career in S/E seaplanes and can't imagine flying a machine that requires a checklist, or a copilot to discuss it with for that matter.
[/quote]
You must experience the excitement and challenge of flying a large long haul jet.
Here is what you do.
Get a Flight Sim program and choose the make of jet you like best....hint....the Airbus has a prettier panel if you are into pretty. :)
If you are Canadian and want to start in Canada load the trip from Vancouver to London Heathrow....that one is long enough to give you a good experience.
Anyhow start around eight o'clock in the evening and make sure you only leave your seat to use the bathroom and don't fall asleep all night. you should arrive in London around 5:30 AM depending on what you programmed for winds.
Let me know how exciting the night went. :)
[color=blue]
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no:[/color]
[/quote]
You must experience the excitement and challenge of flying a large long haul jet.
Here is what you do.
Get a Flight Sim program and choose the make of jet you like best....hint....the Airbus has a prettier panel if you are into pretty. :)
If you are Canadian and want to start in Canada load the trip from Vancouver to London Heathrow....that one is long enough to give you a good experience.
Anyhow start around eight o'clock in the evening and make sure you only leave your seat to use the bathroom and don't fall asleep all night. you should arrive in London around 5:30 AM depending on what you programmed for winds.
Let me know how exciting the night went. :)
[color=blue]
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no:[/color]
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Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]I don't use a checklist to go to the bathroom,
get dressed in the morning, drive a car, ride
a motorcycle, or fly an airplane.[/quote]
Neither do I Colonel, and somehow I have yet to wreck one after over sixty years of driving the damn things.
Back in a time before T.C. decided to dumb down the aviation business by making the process so clusterfucked with rules and neat sounding acronyms to make it sound difficult we did not need PPC's to fly any airplane in the business, we actually were allowed to fly anything our license covered by demonstrating we could fly it.....just imagine a concept like that.
Anyhow I was Chief pilot for a company that had a real mish mash of equipment from a Fleet Canuck and a bunch of other assorted training airplanes to two Dehavilland Doves and also two Hughes helicopters.....
.....Oh and also a Beech 18 Andy.
Remember the time you were asking about getting checked out in yours? And I told you it was not the fire breathing dragon all the wannabe's claim it is, just read the manual and the manufactures check list, walk around the fuc.er and make sure it is ready to fly and get in it and fly it.....and of course it was that simple.
Anyhow back to that fleet of aircraft I flew for that company, like my motorcycle I did not need to consult a written check list every time I got in one.
If you suggested such a thing today most of the industry would be horrified. Sadly :-[
We live in an industry of one trick ponies operating aircraft by committee backed up by paper.
get dressed in the morning, drive a car, ride
a motorcycle, or fly an airplane.[/quote]
Neither do I Colonel, and somehow I have yet to wreck one after over sixty years of driving the damn things.
Back in a time before T.C. decided to dumb down the aviation business by making the process so clusterfucked with rules and neat sounding acronyms to make it sound difficult we did not need PPC's to fly any airplane in the business, we actually were allowed to fly anything our license covered by demonstrating we could fly it.....just imagine a concept like that.
Anyhow I was Chief pilot for a company that had a real mish mash of equipment from a Fleet Canuck and a bunch of other assorted training airplanes to two Dehavilland Doves and also two Hughes helicopters.....
.....Oh and also a Beech 18 Andy.
Remember the time you were asking about getting checked out in yours? And I told you it was not the fire breathing dragon all the wannabe's claim it is, just read the manual and the manufactures check list, walk around the fuc.er and make sure it is ready to fly and get in it and fly it.....and of course it was that simple.
Anyhow back to that fleet of aircraft I flew for that company, like my motorcycle I did not need to consult a written check list every time I got in one.
If you suggested such a thing today most of the industry would be horrified. Sadly :-[
We live in an industry of one trick ponies operating aircraft by committee backed up by paper.
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cloudrunner
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 6:03 pm
[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=131.msg296#msg296 date=1432676090]
You must experience the excitement and challenge of flying a large long haul jet.
[/quote] I thought about it a long time ago. Put a poster of a 777 cockpit on the wall and started my MIFR/license conversion training in Honolulu. 3 hrs into it, me and Hank Bruckner had a nose gear failure in his Seneca II up at Dillingham Field… the airplane was out of commission for a while and it was the end of the line for the only guy I wanted to train IFR with there. Went back to speak to Pat Magie in town and he offered me 10 hours dual in the straight float 206 for $1000 to finish my US license. I was re-hooked on flying floats and that was that. The guy I work for now spent 20,000 hours doing long haul and retired from CP. He believes it's wrecked his health but he still gets a buzz out of flying the Caravan.
It just occurred to me now… I didn't get the notion to jam the power in and go around after the props slapped the pavement that day, go figure, maybe I'm just not brave enough… I mean we could have flown it back from the north shore instead of taking a taxi...
You must experience the excitement and challenge of flying a large long haul jet.
[/quote] I thought about it a long time ago. Put a poster of a 777 cockpit on the wall and started my MIFR/license conversion training in Honolulu. 3 hrs into it, me and Hank Bruckner had a nose gear failure in his Seneca II up at Dillingham Field… the airplane was out of commission for a while and it was the end of the line for the only guy I wanted to train IFR with there. Went back to speak to Pat Magie in town and he offered me 10 hours dual in the straight float 206 for $1000 to finish my US license. I was re-hooked on flying floats and that was that. The guy I work for now spent 20,000 hours doing long haul and retired from CP. He believes it's wrecked his health but he still gets a buzz out of flying the Caravan.
It just occurred to me now… I didn't get the notion to jam the power in and go around after the props slapped the pavement that day, go figure, maybe I'm just not brave enough… I mean we could have flown it back from the north shore instead of taking a taxi...
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