a PBY will carry a two thousand pound over load with no real problem.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

CpnCrunch figures out the obvious. Bright students will figure out the concept quick, but flight schools don’t have practices that reflect the abilities of their best students rather cater to the needs of their worst ones.

In other words flight schools dumb everything down to the lowest common dominator ability wise and teach everyone on that dumbed down scale?

Or is part of the problem most flight instructors are very inexperienced pilots with very little flying background to draw from?

[David MacRay]

What experience would a flight instructor need? Just jump in and giver!

…you already know that the W&B is within limits therefore the paper work is redundant therefore a waste of time.

So why waste time and paper?

No idea why you’re saying that?

Go back and check, it was over weight which means “ not within limits”.

[Squaretail]

CpnCrunch figures out the obvious. Bright students will figure out the concept quick, but flight schools don’t have practices that reflect the abilities of their best students rather cater to the needs of their worst ones.

In other words flight schools dumb everything down to the lowest common dominator ability wise and teach everyone on that dumbed down scale?

If you want to look at it that way sure. When I ran a school, I just wasn’t in the habit of turning away customers, so yes things were frequently geared to accommodate a majority of students needs. The PPL as presented reflects this. There is no bar to entry to learn to fly an airplane. Yes, over the years I got people who perhaps the PPL material was dumbed down for, and TBH, a few lamented that fact. I, nor many schools, were a boutique service that could custom offer precise instruction to exactly fit a students needs. The needs of simplicity of replication in the pursuit of keeping operational and organizational efficiency. Sorry if you don’t like that, but it worked for a long time.

[CpnCrunch]

These days it literally takes about 10 seconds to do a W+B using FltPlan Go or similar apps, so it's no big deal. I agree that once you'd figured out a W+B for a particular configuration then there's no point repeating it for the same plane, but I'm not sure that really works for a large school with lots of students and lots of instructors. I only bother doing a W+B for a 172 if I have someone in the back.

[Squaretail]

These days it literally takes about 10 seconds to do a W+B using FltPlan Go or similar apps, so it's no big deal. I agree that once you'd figured out a W+B for a particular configuration then there's no point repeating it for the same plane, but I'm not sure that really works for a large school with lots of students and lots of instructors. I only bother doing a W+B for a 172 if I have someone in the back.

Indeed. Usually the filling out of the w&b for school is part of its means of exerting operational control. You have a record of what plane went with who and how much fuel it had. You may or may not be required by your COM to keep a record of such things. Again, if your customer base is career oriented students, get used to it. If you get into the 702 or 703 world, it’s likely going to be you filling out the form. Lots of schools have progressed to a digital format, so students are likely doing w&b quick as it took for me to type out this sentence. So the paper and time inconveniences are somewhat moot arguments.

[Liquid_Charlie]

Is there a requirement for a private owner to fill out a w&b in any light aircraft he owns and flies or the fact you made the log entry is proof of doing so. I have no idea since it's been many years since I was doing that.

Someone referred that doing the math is the only way to demonstrate and learn w&b. I tend to disagree. Maybe just me and the people I have dealt with but most need a practical and visual approach. Like the teeter totter, people understand that but to generate a number and see where it lies becomes just that, a math exercise and no real significance to what is going on simply and visually.

Yes, there is load planning when it comes to large aircraft and when you are loading 20 plus cans you need to calculate but I think we are talking small aircraft here.

If I owned a cub, 172, 180 and any aircraft in that category I certainly would walk out the aircraft and go. This is what this level of flying is all about. No gadgets, not flight bag and maybe a map in the seat pocket. If you are flying in southern ontario how could one possibly get lost. Surrounded by big lakes and if you can picture that in your mind you can get to almost anywhere un-aided.

This brings us to the whole situational awareness thing. If you have the picture in your mind on where you are (especially IFR) you can manoeuvre without mental math. I gave up on figuring out hold entries using math even before my initial check ride. Same with course intercepts. What you were doing dictates the intercept angle - I'm a picture in my head guy not a math wiz -

Never failed a ride or had ATC screaming at me -- but to each his own. What works for you is also good but keeping a mind open to new ideas is the best.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I would suggest that LC has got to the heart of the W&B issue at flight schools.

I think too often it is treated as an academic exercise instead of the practical implications of understanding W&B considerations in the real world.

The practical realty is that is almost impossible to load a C 172 out of its C of G envelope unless it is well over gross. A great rainy day exercise for a PPL or a CPL for that matter , is to do some sample weight and balance calculations for a V tail Bonanza. The POH is available on line and it can be an eye opener, especially as you can be inside the envelope at takeoff with full tanks but aft of the aft limit at landing after burning off fuel.

The missing piece of flight training is teaching students to know when you just load and go vs when you need to think about where the C of G really is and what that means to you as the pilot

[David MacRay]

After doing my two weight and balance forms once, I decided to put my brother in the back seat of the Piper Warrior II and let his wife ride up front, because I have no common sense.

[Squaretail]

Someone referred that doing the math is the only way to demonstrate and learn w&b. I tend to disagree. Maybe just me and the people I have dealt with but most need a practical and visual approach. Like the teeter totter, people understand that but to generate a number and see where it lies becomes just that, a math exercise and no real significance to what is going on simply and visually.

Not the ONLY way, just an important part of. One should say that for most light aircraft, weight is the more relevant part of the exercise, and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out more weight require more lift and a poor little airplane can only do so much.

If I owned a cub, 172, 180 and any aircraft in that category I certainly would walk out the aircraft and go. This is what this level of flying is all about. No gadgets, not flight bag and maybe a map in the seat pocket.

I would merely contend that there is a difference between when you are a student and a PPL out on your own. When it comes to these things, there are things that are done to aid the learning of the exercise in question, there are things the school does that aid it’s own operational structure, things done to meet regulatory requirements. Two different worlds. The PPL owner free flyer is only one aspect that may come out of the product of a school. It’s unfortunate if a PPL owner/flyer doesn’t make the connection once they leave the nest, but what such fellows do and their specific interests beyond are to innumerable to gear training specifically towards.

If you are flying in southern ontario how could one possibly get lost. Surrounded by big lakes and if you can picture that in your mind you can get to almost anywhere un-aided.

I know people who can’t find their car un aided in the Wally World parking lot. Never mind finding their way cross country in an airplane, but to each their own.

This brings us to the whole situational awareness thing. If you have the picture in your mind on where you are (especially IFR) you can manoeuvre without mental math. I gave up on figuring out hold entries using math even before my initial check ride. Same with course intercepts. What you were doing dictates the intercept angle - I'm a picture in my head guy not a math wiz -

Never failed a ride or had ATC screaming at me -- but to each his own. What works for you is also good but keeping a mind open to new ideas is the best.

Different things work for different people. After all, if it’s stupid and it works, it isn’t stupid.

[Squaretail]

I would suggest that LC has got to the heart of the W&B issue at flight schools.

I think too often it is treated as an academic exercise instead of the practical implications of understanding W&B considerations in the real world.

Possibly, but I rather think that what you take from any piece of information depends on you. Some students will get it, some will not. I personally find meteorology the same way. Some people won’t ever get the practical implications of the numbers. Most rules are designed with that fact in mind.

The missing piece of flight training is teaching students to know when you just load and go vs when you need to think about where the C of G really is and what that means to you as the pilot

Not sure that can be communicated directly in flight training. People have different concepts of what flying is to them. Some it will fit their picture, some it won’t.