Well I'll be fucked I had no idea you had Barney as an instructor in a Fleet Canuck.
Not only have you started a new forum you are a real pilot! :)
Huge, Massive, Enormous Circuits
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mmm...bacon
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 2:19 am
Try as I can, I just can't see the use of 1 minute circuits? I agree with the thinking behind not doing "747 circuits", but at the same time, rushing for rushing's sake is no good either.
Doing the standard, 'straight out to 500, left turn to 1000, downwind to 45deg threshold, left turn to base, and final turn at 500, land' gives your student time to develop good habits, and time to recognise errors and correct them, no? Cranking 45 deg turns at 200' in order to meet some arbitrary 1 minute timeline might be ok for guys approaching their CPL standard, but for PPL? Really?
As for checklists, I've always taught (on a 172) "left to right, and down": primer, mags, switches, throttel, mixture, carb heat, trim, fuel. Perhaps a bit excessive for a circuit, but works for descent, cruise and lading also..
Thoughts?
Doing the standard, 'straight out to 500, left turn to 1000, downwind to 45deg threshold, left turn to base, and final turn at 500, land' gives your student time to develop good habits, and time to recognise errors and correct them, no? Cranking 45 deg turns at 200' in order to meet some arbitrary 1 minute timeline might be ok for guys approaching their CPL standard, but for PPL? Really?
As for checklists, I've always taught (on a 172) "left to right, and down": primer, mags, switches, throttel, mixture, carb heat, trim, fuel. Perhaps a bit excessive for a circuit, but works for descent, cruise and lading also..
Thoughts?
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Barneydhc82
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:32 pm
Who said anything about a one minute circuit??????? But turning a 3 mile final at the CZ boundary is BS. I was in ATC for just shy of 50 years and during that time I instructed on a great many aircraft types always teaching to keep it within gliding range of the runway while in the circuit. I also taught my students to do "Close Patterns" just in case and it paid off. But that is another story.
If you fly out of Blunder Bay these days you are virtually controlled in the circuit by radar with about 2 miles separation....and that makes for really big circuits .
Barney
If you fly out of Blunder Bay these days you are virtually controlled in the circuit by radar with about 2 miles separation....and that makes for really big circuits .
Barney
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Chuck Ellsworth
It was me Barney, several posts ago I made that comment.
However I did not mean for anyone to think I advise one minute circuits teaching for the PPL.
I use one minute circuits teaching advanced airplane handling skills....one minute is actually a long time when you think about it...for sure it is no problem in a light airplane.
However I did not mean for anyone to think I advise one minute circuits teaching for the PPL.
I use one minute circuits teaching advanced airplane handling skills....one minute is actually a long time when you think about it...for sure it is no problem in a light airplane.
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mmm...bacon
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 2:19 am
That's not what you said, Chuck, but t is the way it came across to me.
Does your circuit diameter vary, depending on your student's level, then? - a '747' circuit might be an option for a student just being introduced to circuits, tightening it up as they get better, while a tighter one would be appropriate for a career pilot...
Does your circuit diameter vary, depending on your student's level, then? - a '747' circuit might be an option for a student just being introduced to circuits, tightening it up as they get better, while a tighter one would be appropriate for a career pilot...
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Barneydhc82
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:32 pm
The capability of the student was a factor in how the circuit was flown but unless there was a large number of a/c in the circuit, it was not much more than 5-6 minutes per circuit. This was using the procedure that mmm outlined.
The stretch-out factor was also caused by the guy on downwind not turning base until he/she was past the guy ahead on base. If you were following another aircraft already on base, start your turn when it is at your 10:00 position (left hand pattern) and your spacing and circuit size would remain relatively constant.
Teaching a newby to fly a proper circuit can be a bit challenging because there is no one-size-fits-all.
Now I'll finish my first cup of coffee and try to wake up.
Fly safe
Barney
The stretch-out factor was also caused by the guy on downwind not turning base until he/she was past the guy ahead on base. If you were following another aircraft already on base, start your turn when it is at your 10:00 position (left hand pattern) and your spacing and circuit size would remain relatively constant.
Teaching a newby to fly a proper circuit can be a bit challenging because there is no one-size-fits-all.
Now I'll finish my first cup of coffee and try to wake up.
Fly safe
Barney
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
I can see the very first time that a student
tries to fly a circuit, it might end up being
very large as he is likely 'way behind the
aircraft, and struggling with an excessive
FTU checklist.
However, before a student is sent solo,
he is required to have received training
on engine failure in the circuit - see the
front of any PTR.
This of course includes engine failure on
the downwind. The obvious and safest
thing to do, after an engine failure on
downwind, is to land on the runway.
This is acheived by choosing to fly the
downwind at a lateral distance from the
runway which permits a successful
power-off approach.
I don't know how any flight instructor
in Canada legally can send a student
solo, if they cannot successfully handle
an engine failure in the circuit, as required
by TC by the PTR.
I guess the regulations don't apply to
the puppy mills because they wear white
shirts and gold bars and have thick checklists.
See "Cargo Cult".
Now onto one minute circuits ....
Students should always be improving their
skills. Once they master the "normal" circuit
(which allows for a power-off approach from
downwind) one scenario I teach is cloud at
500 AGL.
This happens amazingly often at my uncontrolled
airport with no wx reporting (METAR).
In fact, a certified genius with a PhD that works
for CSIS did exactly that, one day here. He
took off and flew into cloud.
Unlike what I teach, he did not lower the nose
but instead chose to climb up into cloud, which
was an unwise choice, PhD and CSIS aside,
because he does not have an instrument rating,
no pubs, aircraft is VFR only.
So, learning to fly 500 foot circuits can keep
you alive, if you are interested.
It is also FAR more efficient for the student,
because he can get more landings per hour.
However, I can see that 500 foot circuits
are quite a strain for some people, who
can't even fly a "normal" 1000 AGL circuit
that permits an engine failure on downwind
with a landing on the runway.
This is a problem I have with flight training
and aviation today. People have a problem
with being unskilled, and instead of responding
by improving their skills, they claim that the
skilled people are somehow contravening the
regulations or are in some other way "Bad
People".
Tired of the "Bad People" crap. Been getting
that from TC and various weiners for a long
time now, and unlike them, I don't crash
airplanes.
tries to fly a circuit, it might end up being
very large as he is likely 'way behind the
aircraft, and struggling with an excessive
FTU checklist.
However, before a student is sent solo,
he is required to have received training
on engine failure in the circuit - see the
front of any PTR.
This of course includes engine failure on
the downwind. The obvious and safest
thing to do, after an engine failure on
downwind, is to land on the runway.
This is acheived by choosing to fly the
downwind at a lateral distance from the
runway which permits a successful
power-off approach.
I don't know how any flight instructor
in Canada legally can send a student
solo, if they cannot successfully handle
an engine failure in the circuit, as required
by TC by the PTR.
I guess the regulations don't apply to
the puppy mills because they wear white
shirts and gold bars and have thick checklists.
See "Cargo Cult".
Now onto one minute circuits ....
Students should always be improving their
skills. Once they master the "normal" circuit
(which allows for a power-off approach from
downwind) one scenario I teach is cloud at
500 AGL.
This happens amazingly often at my uncontrolled
airport with no wx reporting (METAR).
In fact, a certified genius with a PhD that works
for CSIS did exactly that, one day here. He
took off and flew into cloud.
Unlike what I teach, he did not lower the nose
but instead chose to climb up into cloud, which
was an unwise choice, PhD and CSIS aside,
because he does not have an instrument rating,
no pubs, aircraft is VFR only.
So, learning to fly 500 foot circuits can keep
you alive, if you are interested.
It is also FAR more efficient for the student,
because he can get more landings per hour.
However, I can see that 500 foot circuits
are quite a strain for some people, who
can't even fly a "normal" 1000 AGL circuit
that permits an engine failure on downwind
with a landing on the runway.
This is a problem I have with flight training
and aviation today. People have a problem
with being unskilled, and instead of responding
by improving their skills, they claim that the
skilled people are somehow contravening the
regulations or are in some other way "Bad
People".
Tired of the "Bad People" crap. Been getting
that from TC and various weiners for a long
time now, and unlike them, I don't crash
airplanes.
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Chuck Ellsworth
[list][quote]That's not what you said, Chuck, but t is the way it came across to me.
Does your circuit diameter vary, depending on your student's level, then? - a '747' circuit might be an option for a student just being introduced to circuits, tightening it up as they get better, while a tighter one would be appropriate for a career pilot...[/quote]
I fly a circuit that gives the best choice of safe landing areas if the engine fails.
The ability to land on the airport from the down wind is top priority.
If the circuit is to short for the student to do the check list the check list is to long.....in my opinion of course.
[/list]
Does your circuit diameter vary, depending on your student's level, then? - a '747' circuit might be an option for a student just being introduced to circuits, tightening it up as they get better, while a tighter one would be appropriate for a career pilot...[/quote]
I fly a circuit that gives the best choice of safe landing areas if the engine fails.
The ability to land on the airport from the down wind is top priority.
If the circuit is to short for the student to do the check list the check list is to long.....in my opinion of course.
[/list]
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Barneydhc82
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:32 pm
Downwind check: FMSB. Fuel..On Fullest tank or Both. Mixture ...Full Rich. Swithes..On Both. Brakes..Pressure and heels on the floor. How long does that take? Certainly not 6 miles of airspace as some of the tweenies would have you do.
Barney
Barney
