Old guy, right? Knows how to fly a fucking airplane.
[quote]The problem was attributed to the MCAS system, a piece of software running in the background and was installed because of the new engines on the B737-MAX8.
Do I need to know much about MCAS? Not really, I don’t need to know how an engine works to start or shut it down, all I know is that [u]if the stabilizer trim runs away uncommanded, I know how to stop it[/u].[/quote]
I can't fucking believe that people think that runaway trim
is a "new thing". Have they never flown with an auto-pilot
before?!
Like this new "black hole" effect that the Millenials discovered.
Fuck me. The youngsters say that history and experience is
useless, they insist upon not learning lessons from it, then it's
a HUGE surprise when it happens to them.
Jesus save us all from AOC and her cohorts.
737 max groundings.
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=9535.msg27230#msg27230 date=1553051141]
Old guy, right? Knows how to fly a fucking
Jesus save us all from AOC and her cohorts.
[/quote]
how millennials see Boeing
[youtube][/youtube]
He said he had 20,000 hours somewhere in that Facebook clip. And I bet it wasn’t all in some fancy wizbang airplane
Old guy, right? Knows how to fly a fucking
Jesus save us all from AOC and her cohorts.
[/quote]
how millennials see Boeing
[youtube][/youtube]
He said he had 20,000 hours somewhere in that Facebook clip. And I bet it wasn’t all in some fancy wizbang airplane
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Who was the guy with a clue in the jump seat?
[quote]As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster while the others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.[/quote]
Nobody remembers the 707 ventral fin, do they? The similarities
are eerily similar. See Tex Johnston's autobiography.
[quote]As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster while the others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.[/quote]
Nobody remembers the 707 ventral fin, do they? The similarities
are eerily similar. See Tex Johnston's autobiography.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]For the next [u]nine minutes[/u], the jet warned pilots it was in a stall and pushed the nose down
As the 31-year-old captain tried in vain to find the right procedure in the handbook,
the 41-year-old first officer was unable to control the plane[/quote]
Checklists sure are great.
As the 31-year-old captain tried in vain to find the right procedure in the handbook,
the 41-year-old first officer was unable to control the plane[/quote]
Checklists sure are great.
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Liquid Charlie
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:34 pm
The next generation - I have not flown NG aircraft and flew the boeing classics but talking to those who have moved on the first thing out of their mouth was the fact that all was done through checklists and that now they only have only 1 drill item to remember. With the classics there was a lock system that opposite movement of the elevators engaged a break. Runaway trim had drill items (not many) so it's obvious these guys did not have the knowledge to react. In modern aircraft the computer, in theory, looks after all the emergencies and the crew, in some cases only find out that there was an issue when the computer tells them it happened and is already addressed. The auto systems even fly the aircraft in engine inop. I will say this again. ALPA states that CFIT is under control (part 121), stick and rudder skills, because of automation is the next big killer. That statement was made about 7 years ago. Sadly their predictions seem to be coming true.
I remember taking a Universal FMS factory course. The first thing out of the instructor's mouth "This system was designed by a non pilot so your logic will likely add to the confusion when it comes to programming. The creators of this system do not think like pilots. I think that no matter how bullet proof you make a system the human input and how people think differently there will be a way found to bring the system into a situation where the first reaction is WTF happened there. People do one thing very well. They can fuck anything up and trump logic.
I remember taking a Universal FMS factory course. The first thing out of the instructor's mouth "This system was designed by a non pilot so your logic will likely add to the confusion when it comes to programming. The creators of this system do not think like pilots. I think that no matter how bullet proof you make a system the human input and how people think differently there will be a way found to bring the system into a situation where the first reaction is WTF happened there. People do one thing very well. They can fuck anything up and trump logic.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out
[quote]In computer science, garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) describes the concept that flawed, or nonsense input data produces nonsense output or "garbage".[/quote]
Apparently GIGO is a revolutionary new concept for some people.
[quote]In computer science, garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) describes the concept that flawed, or nonsense input data produces nonsense output or "garbage".[/quote]
Apparently GIGO is a revolutionary new concept for some people.
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
737 Max Checklist
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Eric Janson
- Posts: 412
- Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:31 am
[quote author=ScudRunner link=topic=9535.msg27291#msg27291 date=1553311895]
737 Max Checklist
[/quote]
All sounds very simple in theory doesn't it?
Quite a different story when there's a continuous loud distracting stick shaker going off that can't be silenced and you are seeing strange warning messages on your screens. Not to mention manually flying the aircraft with unreliable speed while trying to figure out what is going on.
I can certainly imagine a crew getting so task saturated that the trim isn't seen moving and the sound is masked by the stall warning.
MCAS doesn't trim continuously - I don't think it meets the runaway trim criteria. By the same logic you'd hit the cutout switches when the Speed Trim operates as well. Trim starting then stopping isn't uncontrolled by definition imho.
737 Max Checklist
[/quote]
All sounds very simple in theory doesn't it?
Quite a different story when there's a continuous loud distracting stick shaker going off that can't be silenced and you are seeing strange warning messages on your screens. Not to mention manually flying the aircraft with unreliable speed while trying to figure out what is going on.
I can certainly imagine a crew getting so task saturated that the trim isn't seen moving and the sound is masked by the stall warning.
MCAS doesn't trim continuously - I don't think it meets the runaway trim criteria. By the same logic you'd hit the cutout switches when the Speed Trim operates as well. Trim starting then stopping isn't uncontrolled by definition imho.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
I would strongly suspect that this is going to be added
to the sim training, as part of BA's upcoming changes.
It would be really nice if people could learn to turn all
the crap off - well, as much as the FAA will let them -
and flying the fucking thing by hand, when all that fancy
shit stops helping.
It's an airplane. It has wings, which push air down.
It has engines, which push air back. When you strip
away all the crap, they all fly the same.
Oddly, this very basic knowledge and skill is now
considered "advanced".
As far as all that shit screaming at you in the cockpit ...
those of us that have been divorced have learned to
ignore that. Maybe they should only allow divorced
pilots to fly the 737 Max?
to the sim training, as part of BA's upcoming changes.
It would be really nice if people could learn to turn all
the crap off - well, as much as the FAA will let them -
and flying the fucking thing by hand, when all that fancy
shit stops helping.
It's an airplane. It has wings, which push air down.
It has engines, which push air back. When you strip
away all the crap, they all fly the same.
Oddly, this very basic knowledge and skill is now
considered "advanced".
As far as all that shit screaming at you in the cockpit ...
those of us that have been divorced have learned to
ignore that. Maybe they should only allow divorced
pilots to fly the 737 Max?
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