Is TC monitoring the right things?

[Trey Kule]

The realtively recent accident where a two pilot crewed navajo mismanaged their fuel and lost both engines got some of us to talking about training. Specifically CRM/SOPs
There are numerous accident reports where one has to ask....what was the FO doing?  Two crew. No one flying, no one monitoring.


Perhaps, instead of reviewing paperwork and approving things, TC inspectors might better spend their time reviewing the company’s training program, sitting it on it occassionally, and doing a bit of regulatory quality assurance.


CRM...does not really seem to be being applied when we read the accident reports. 
And many small 703s, and many FTUs do not really seem to grasp the concept or implement it practically.
Training, in this instance appears ( in my opinion) to have been a bit of pencil whipping. Not much else would explain why two supposedly trained crew members did nothing because it was not in their SOPs.  Or never knew enough to recognize the SOPs omitted some rather critical procedures.

[Colonel]

Didn't the left seater have 10,000TT?!

If someone can't fly a piston twin after [b]TEN THOUSAND[/b] hours of flying,
I'm not sure what remedial training is going to make the difference.

I know you don't like it when I say this, but one good pilot is better
than two bad ones.  Does everyone have the [b]right[/b] to fly an airplane
professionally, regardless of how hopeless or dangerous they are, in
the sacred name of egalitarianism?

[quote]Among the notable broadly egalitarian philosophies are socialism, communism, social anarchism, libertarian socialism, left-libertarianism, and progressivism, some of which propound economic egalitarianism. Several egalitarian ideas enjoy wide support among intellectuals and in the general populations of many countries.

However, [b]whether any of these ideas have been significantly implemented in practice remains a controversial question[/b].[/quote]

No shit, Sherlock.  Look at the Ho on the city street with the
fuel selectors on the dry outboards.  Very egalitarian!

[Trey Kule]

I am not sure where you drew the conclusion I dont like it or disagree with you, but I digress


It was interesting your mention about a 10000 pilot doing this.  One of the non pilot types listening in today asked if the pilot would ever be allowed to fly again....I think they thought we were joking when we told them we expected she would probably be at Air Canada already.. Diversity ismore important than competence

[CD]

[quote author=Trey Kule link=topic=8917.msg24414#msg24414 date=1535000393]
CRM...does not really seem to be being applied when we read the accident reports. 
And many small 703s, and many FTUs do not really seem to grasp the concept or implement it practically.
Training, in this instance appears ( in my opinion) to have been a bit of pencil whipping. Not much else would explain why two supposedly trained crew members did nothing because it was not in their SOPs.  Or never knew enough to recognize the SOPs omitted some rather critical procedures.[/quote]
That could partly be because air taxi and commuter operations have never been required to have CRM training in Canada.  The TSB had been making recommendations since at least 95 and as of next January it seems that it will finally be a requirement for air carriers... although it seems to still be missing from FTUs.


[url=http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/recommandation ... _a9512.asp][u]Recommendation A95-12: Evaluating crew resource management and pilot decision-making skills[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/recommanda ... _a0006.asp][u]Recommendation A00-06: Pilot decision making[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/recommandation ... _a0902.asp][u]Recommendation A09-02: Crew resource management training[/u][/url]
[url=http://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviatio ... 0-042.html][u]AC 700-042: Crew Resource Management Training[/u][/url]
[url=http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/n ... x?id=10654][u]Commercial Air Service Standard: Crew Resource Management Training[/u][/url]

[Liquid Charlie]

Having been involved with 703 and 704 carriers lately I must say it was an eye opener, especially at the 703 level. What these companies need is "command" training and teach people how to be captains. If a pilot has no command experience and never flew multi crew aircraft, human nature and ego takes over and a cocky 700hr pilot who was taught by his mentor, a cocky now 900 hr pilot actually turns out a captain that CRM was initiated for so many years ago. I have discovered that assholes, tyrants and fucking idiots in the flight deck is not a generational thing. It's alive and well in this present generation of pilot and it is self taught.


I'm guessing that these individuals will always been around but in all the years of CRM, Human Factors and education the numbers have not diminished to the point that all this training has done much good. Transport is slowly evaporating up it's own ass. It wants to dump all responsibility so calling for more oversight is useless. Like everything else it's the bottom feeders that will drive the industry. Not many of the public want quality anymore, it's all about cheapest deal. Automation will be the solution  >:D

[John Swallow]

LC wrote:  "[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Transport is slowly evaporating up it's own ass"[/color]

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Concur.  By abrogating its responsibilities in an effort to trim costs, TC is becoming irrelevant.  [/color]

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Unfortunately, it will take a serious of disastrous accidents to reverse the trend.  [/color]

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Saving money has consequences.[/color]


Some unintended...

[Trey Kule]

LC...I am in a similar situation.


To be clear, I was not suggesting additional resources for TC, but rather a reallocation of their resources from paper checking to ops auditing,  I think they could make wiser use of their existing resources.


And yes, their offloading of costs to operators will, I believe , have some very negative costs to the industry,


The whole SMS thing was never intended to be implemented by domestic small operators,  TC wasted how miuch of their resources jamming it down small operators throats and crowing about how successful it was.
SOPs, and CRM are buzzwords, that few 703 managers really understand,  training is all about watching a video, writing the exam, checking the box. i have yet to see a small company in Canada give a surprise follow up exam to their pilots after about three months to determine if the training was retained.
CRM, command programs, SOPs...Regulations will only appeal to the perfect paper pushers.