Midair refueling with style
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Doing a roll while refueling can be done:
[img width=500 height=375]http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/upl ... 0s-web.jpg[/img]
If you keep the G slightly positive the entire
time, and keep the airspeed within limits, the
hardware doesn't know the difference.
PS It's not a barrel roll. It's an aileron roll.
One of the very first maneuvers you learn as
an aerobatic student is the [b]aileron roll[/b], and
you learn to do it without pushing negative G while
inverted over the top. At least, you did if you
were one of my students.
I had an aerobatic instructor come to me - he was
teaching aerobatics on the Grob, which incredibly
had no inverted system for the oil, or even a slobber
pot - and told me that you couldn't do a 1/2 cuban
eight on it, because of the negative G on the inverted
45 downline.
Nonsense, I told him, you simply need to spiral from
the inverted at the top, just like you would in the
second half of a gentle aileron roll.
Because many supposed aerobatic aircraft - like the
citabria, grob, PT-22, etc - have no inverted systems,
it is best to learn to do aerobatics with continual +ve G.
PPS A barrel roll is a spiralled loop and as such has
higher G - +3 or +4 - upon entry and exit, unlike the
aileron roll, which only needs +2 upon entry and exit.
There are many kinds of rolls - aileron roll, barrel roll,
snap roll, point roll, torque roll - and they are often
confused. Viewed from above, an aileron roll draws
a straight line over the ground. Not so for a barrel
roll.
Ask any TC Inspector to explain and demonstrate
them to you.
[img width=500 height=375]http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/upl ... 0s-web.jpg[/img]
If you keep the G slightly positive the entire
time, and keep the airspeed within limits, the
hardware doesn't know the difference.
PS It's not a barrel roll. It's an aileron roll.
One of the very first maneuvers you learn as
an aerobatic student is the [b]aileron roll[/b], and
you learn to do it without pushing negative G while
inverted over the top. At least, you did if you
were one of my students.
I had an aerobatic instructor come to me - he was
teaching aerobatics on the Grob, which incredibly
had no inverted system for the oil, or even a slobber
pot - and told me that you couldn't do a 1/2 cuban
eight on it, because of the negative G on the inverted
45 downline.
Nonsense, I told him, you simply need to spiral from
the inverted at the top, just like you would in the
second half of a gentle aileron roll.
Because many supposed aerobatic aircraft - like the
citabria, grob, PT-22, etc - have no inverted systems,
it is best to learn to do aerobatics with continual +ve G.
PPS A barrel roll is a spiralled loop and as such has
higher G - +3 or +4 - upon entry and exit, unlike the
aileron roll, which only needs +2 upon entry and exit.
There are many kinds of rolls - aileron roll, barrel roll,
snap roll, point roll, torque roll - and they are often
confused. Viewed from above, an aileron roll draws
a straight line over the ground. Not so for a barrel
roll.
Ask any TC Inspector to explain and demonstrate
them to you.
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
Think I read something about that, the crews would practice 45 degree bank turns while refueling just to stay sharp or something to that effect.
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Kartoon
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:34 am
[quote author=ScudRunner link=topic=7803.msg21667#msg21667 date=1516240811]
Think I read something about that, the crews would practice 45 degree bank turns while refueling just to stay sharp or something to that effect.
[/quote]
Actually it was a manœuvre done as part of instructor upgrade according to this site:
[url=https://www.avgeekery.com/b-52-aircrews ... ust-prove/]https://www.avgeekery.com/b-52-aircrews ... ust-prove/[/url]
Think I read something about that, the crews would practice 45 degree bank turns while refueling just to stay sharp or something to that effect.
[/quote]
Actually it was a manœuvre done as part of instructor upgrade according to this site:
[url=https://www.avgeekery.com/b-52-aircrews ... ust-prove/]https://www.avgeekery.com/b-52-aircrews ... ust-prove/[/url]
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
Don't need to be accurate with a 5 kiloton warhead eh
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digits
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=7803.msg21664#msg21664 date=1516207669]
One of the very first maneuvers you learn as
an aerobatic student is the [b]aileron roll[/b], and
you learn to do it without pushing negative G while
inverted over the top. At least, you did if you
were one of my students.
[/quote]
How would you accomplish that? If the aileron roll is defined as a manouvre that makes you fly a horizontal straight line while rolling 360 degrees, how would you do that without negative g's on the top? At one point you'll be inverted. Without negative g's your altitude will change, no?
One of the very first maneuvers you learn as
an aerobatic student is the [b]aileron roll[/b], and
you learn to do it without pushing negative G while
inverted over the top. At least, you did if you
were one of my students.
[/quote]
How would you accomplish that? If the aileron roll is defined as a manouvre that makes you fly a horizontal straight line while rolling 360 degrees, how would you do that without negative g's on the top? At one point you'll be inverted. Without negative g's your altitude will change, no?
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote][b]Viewed from above[/b], an aileron roll draws
a straight line over the ground[/quote]
An aileron roll involves flying [b]a straight line over the ground[/b],
with a +2G pitch up to perhaps 30 degrees up, and a full
roll during which the nose falls to perhaps 30 degrees nose
down, and a +2G pitch back up to level.
[img width=500 height=113]http://flyacro.us/images/aileron%20roll%20png.png[/img]
Entry and exit altitudes are [b]the same[/b]. Use the pitch up angle
to adjust. The faster the roll rate and the slower the aircraft
bleeds airspeed off when the nose comes up, the less pitch
up angle will be required.
I can teach any pilot to aileron roll any airplane in 5 minutes,
but I'm a pretty marginal pilot and instructor compared to a TC
Inspector, I understand. Here are some I did in a jet, under
some low cloud to make it interesting:
[youtube][/youtube]
Note that during the aileron rolls in the L39, I kept the
G slightly positive while inverted - you can see the straps
hanging down from the top of the rear ejection seat. This
is more pleasant for the people in the cockpit because the
dirt on the floor does not rise up into their eyes, and the
fluids - which have no eyeballs - stay where they should,
too.
My father - he was just a T-33/F-86/F-104 weapons test
pilot at CEPE with a Zulu clearance, and an IP at the OTU -
was considered a pretty shitty pilot by TC, but when he was
working for Alcan in Kingston as a plant engineer after he
got out of the RCAF, was requested by the Alcan management
to fly all their corporate jets they were looking at buying.
Learjets, Falcons, etc. He didn't want to - he was working
as a fucking engineer then - but Alcan management reasoned
that since they had a test pilot working for them, he could
fly for them, too.
He rolled them all, of course. Full of people with light
an positive G all the way around. It's really too bad he
couldn't fly an airplane as well as a TC Inspector.
[url=http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 0h0007.pdf]http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 0h0007.pdf[/url]
Negative G is required for a horizontal slow roll, which
is extremely poorly named. In addition to drawing a
straight line over the ground - like an aileron roll - with
[b]a slow roll there will be no change in altitude[/b] - but pitch
changes WILL be required, as the airspeed slows.
You can of course rotate as quickly as you want during
a "slow roll" and in fact unlimited monoplanes roll so fast,
a snap roll is kind of stupid in them because of their
high drag. You're always wanting to conserve energy,
except when you want to get rid of it ... it was wonderful
to watch Gene Soucy do snap rolls on final in his Pitts
S-1 to kill airspeed. He's a good stick. Not as good as
a TC Inspector, of course, but pretty good.
Also note that a slow roll can be done on the 45 up and
down lines, or the 90 degree up and down.
Again, get any TC Inspector to explain and demonstrate
slow rolls, point rolls, snap rolls, aileron rolls, barrel rolls
and torque rolls.
[img width=500 height=337][/img]
TC may have thought that the T-33/F-86/F-104/Pitts pilot
in C-GTPS may have been a pretty shitty pilot compared
to them, but he was one of the finest sticks I ever flew
with. He was a horrible instructor, of course, but that's
a different story.
a straight line over the ground[/quote]
An aileron roll involves flying [b]a straight line over the ground[/b],
with a +2G pitch up to perhaps 30 degrees up, and a full
roll during which the nose falls to perhaps 30 degrees nose
down, and a +2G pitch back up to level.
[img width=500 height=113]http://flyacro.us/images/aileron%20roll%20png.png[/img]
Entry and exit altitudes are [b]the same[/b]. Use the pitch up angle
to adjust. The faster the roll rate and the slower the aircraft
bleeds airspeed off when the nose comes up, the less pitch
up angle will be required.
I can teach any pilot to aileron roll any airplane in 5 minutes,
but I'm a pretty marginal pilot and instructor compared to a TC
Inspector, I understand. Here are some I did in a jet, under
some low cloud to make it interesting:
[youtube][/youtube]
Note that during the aileron rolls in the L39, I kept the
G slightly positive while inverted - you can see the straps
hanging down from the top of the rear ejection seat. This
is more pleasant for the people in the cockpit because the
dirt on the floor does not rise up into their eyes, and the
fluids - which have no eyeballs - stay where they should,
too.
My father - he was just a T-33/F-86/F-104 weapons test
pilot at CEPE with a Zulu clearance, and an IP at the OTU -
was considered a pretty shitty pilot by TC, but when he was
working for Alcan in Kingston as a plant engineer after he
got out of the RCAF, was requested by the Alcan management
to fly all their corporate jets they were looking at buying.
Learjets, Falcons, etc. He didn't want to - he was working
as a fucking engineer then - but Alcan management reasoned
that since they had a test pilot working for them, he could
fly for them, too.
He rolled them all, of course. Full of people with light
an positive G all the way around. It's really too bad he
couldn't fly an airplane as well as a TC Inspector.
[url=http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 0h0007.pdf]http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 0h0007.pdf[/url]
Negative G is required for a horizontal slow roll, which
is extremely poorly named. In addition to drawing a
straight line over the ground - like an aileron roll - with
[b]a slow roll there will be no change in altitude[/b] - but pitch
changes WILL be required, as the airspeed slows.
You can of course rotate as quickly as you want during
a "slow roll" and in fact unlimited monoplanes roll so fast,
a snap roll is kind of stupid in them because of their
high drag. You're always wanting to conserve energy,
except when you want to get rid of it ... it was wonderful
to watch Gene Soucy do snap rolls on final in his Pitts
S-1 to kill airspeed. He's a good stick. Not as good as
a TC Inspector, of course, but pretty good.
Also note that a slow roll can be done on the 45 up and
down lines, or the 90 degree up and down.
Again, get any TC Inspector to explain and demonstrate
slow rolls, point rolls, snap rolls, aileron rolls, barrel rolls
and torque rolls.
[img width=500 height=337][/img]
TC may have thought that the T-33/F-86/F-104/Pitts pilot
in C-GTPS may have been a pretty shitty pilot compared
to them, but he was one of the finest sticks I ever flew
with. He was a horrible instructor, of course, but that's
a different story.
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