Aerobatics and your plain old C150
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DeflectionShot
So folks I'm planning on taking a basic aerobatics course in the spring as part of the bucket list but I want to do a bit work before in preparation. My local FTU doesn't have anything remotely capable of full aerobatics, but there are some things you can do in a 150 or 172. Any suggestions on maneuvers? Spins are an obvious one...lazy eights? Chandelles?
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
The paper people like Arlo and Rotten Ronnie and
Laird-ass and Weirdo Wayne will howl, but ...
There is plenty to learn about aircraft handling in
an aircraft that cannot take high or negative G.
First thing is to learn to use the rudder pedals,
which is why old instructors like me prefer taildraggers,
which require you to be able to be use the pedals
on the floor to control yaw, if you want to keep it
on the runway.
But even in a nosewheel aircraft, if you have an
instructor with some skill himself - that's the hard
part - you can become a master at high-alpha
flight.
In the practice area, at 3000 AGL, put on 20 flap
(to keep the nose down) and get comfortable
slowing the aircraft down, and maneuvering it
with the stall warning doing, through climbs,
descents and turns. You drop a wing, it's not
the end of the world, fly through the stall.
Don't pick up a wing with aileron. Use rudder
and forward stick when the nose drops to decrease
the AOA. Colgan 3407 never learned that, and
they're all dead now.
No one does stuff like that any more, but it's really
useful. Do turns around a point, falling leaf.
They all build lots of character. Do that with
the dashboard entirely covered, which forces
you to
[b]LOOK OUTSIDE[/b]
and learn that
[b]ATTITUDE + POWER = PERFORMANCE[/b]
which four-bars like AF447 thought was stupid.
Now that you have improved your aircraft handling
skills, it's time to learn that pitch attitude and AOA
are NOT tightly coupled. They have been, up until
this point in your flying, and now it's time for wingovers.
Wingovers are hated by TC, but they are very useful,
with a 90 degree bank at the apogee, to learn the
relationship between G and airspeed and AOA.
If you don't pull much G, you don't need much
airspeed to avoid a stall.
The drooling morons on AvCan don't understand this,
but any aircraft in the world at an [b]80 degree[/b] angle of
bank turning base - or back to the runway - has a
[b]stall speed of zero[/b] if you unload the wing and don't
try to develop any lift, with light (zero) G.
90 degree banked wingovers are very gentle and easy
to do, but Arlo and Ronnie and Laird and Wayne will
burn your ass if you do them in a normal aircraft.
Heck, they used to send an Enforcement Inspector out
to my tiny airport, to hide behind the row of hangars
with a camera, to take a picture of me exceeding 60
degrees of bank in the circuit.
I am not making this up. They are such morons - I
had an SFOC.
Anyways, despite the morons at TC, yes, you can
probably improve your aircraft handling skills and
knowledge without requiring that you pull or push
enormous G.
My father, that TC hated with a passion, would have
a G-meter of +4/-3 after every airshow formation
flight. He was a fucking machine, he was so smooth
and consistent. No wonder that Arlo and Rotten Ronnie
and Laird-Ass and Wayne hated him so much.
Laird-ass and Weirdo Wayne will howl, but ...
There is plenty to learn about aircraft handling in
an aircraft that cannot take high or negative G.
First thing is to learn to use the rudder pedals,
which is why old instructors like me prefer taildraggers,
which require you to be able to be use the pedals
on the floor to control yaw, if you want to keep it
on the runway.
But even in a nosewheel aircraft, if you have an
instructor with some skill himself - that's the hard
part - you can become a master at high-alpha
flight.
In the practice area, at 3000 AGL, put on 20 flap
(to keep the nose down) and get comfortable
slowing the aircraft down, and maneuvering it
with the stall warning doing, through climbs,
descents and turns. You drop a wing, it's not
the end of the world, fly through the stall.
Don't pick up a wing with aileron. Use rudder
and forward stick when the nose drops to decrease
the AOA. Colgan 3407 never learned that, and
they're all dead now.
No one does stuff like that any more, but it's really
useful. Do turns around a point, falling leaf.
They all build lots of character. Do that with
the dashboard entirely covered, which forces
you to
[b]LOOK OUTSIDE[/b]
and learn that
[b]ATTITUDE + POWER = PERFORMANCE[/b]
which four-bars like AF447 thought was stupid.
Now that you have improved your aircraft handling
skills, it's time to learn that pitch attitude and AOA
are NOT tightly coupled. They have been, up until
this point in your flying, and now it's time for wingovers.
Wingovers are hated by TC, but they are very useful,
with a 90 degree bank at the apogee, to learn the
relationship between G and airspeed and AOA.
If you don't pull much G, you don't need much
airspeed to avoid a stall.
The drooling morons on AvCan don't understand this,
but any aircraft in the world at an [b]80 degree[/b] angle of
bank turning base - or back to the runway - has a
[b]stall speed of zero[/b] if you unload the wing and don't
try to develop any lift, with light (zero) G.
90 degree banked wingovers are very gentle and easy
to do, but Arlo and Ronnie and Laird and Wayne will
burn your ass if you do them in a normal aircraft.
Heck, they used to send an Enforcement Inspector out
to my tiny airport, to hide behind the row of hangars
with a camera, to take a picture of me exceeding 60
degrees of bank in the circuit.
I am not making this up. They are such morons - I
had an SFOC.
Anyways, despite the morons at TC, yes, you can
probably improve your aircraft handling skills and
knowledge without requiring that you pull or push
enormous G.
My father, that TC hated with a passion, would have
a G-meter of +4/-3 after every airshow formation
flight. He was a fucking machine, he was so smooth
and consistent. No wonder that Arlo and Rotten Ronnie
and Laird-Ass and Wayne hated him so much.
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Chuck Ellsworth
To answer the question simply....
........
Yes there are lots of maneuvers that require real flying skills you can do in a Cessna 150 / 172.
The difficult part is finding someone that can teach you.
........
Yes there are lots of maneuvers that require real flying skills you can do in a Cessna 150 / 172.
The difficult part is finding someone that can teach you.
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BCPilotguy
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 9:56 pm
You would very likely be tied to a post and shot for this in Canada, but this wasn't filmed in Canada.
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
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Trey Kule
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:19 am
Chuck. You nailed it, and brought a smile to my face at the same time.
If I may expand. The FAA has several very good exercises...Chandelle, Lazy eights, turns around a point.
Find an instructor who actually knows and understands how these are done properly, and well.(something I found was a rarity in Canada despite many claiming expertise)
Let them demonstrate how they are done properly, and then monitor you until you are confident you understand the standards..then solo practice until perfect.
I am not familiar with the limitations on a 150, but I think these should not cause you any issues, and done properly with finese they will teach you all about co ordination and adverse yaw.
If I may expand. The FAA has several very good exercises...Chandelle, Lazy eights, turns around a point.
Find an instructor who actually knows and understands how these are done properly, and well.(something I found was a rarity in Canada despite many claiming expertise)
Let them demonstrate how they are done properly, and then monitor you until you are confident you understand the standards..then solo practice until perfect.
I am not familiar with the limitations on a 150, but I think these should not cause you any issues, and done properly with finese they will teach you all about co ordination and adverse yaw.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Biggest problem with the 150/152 imho is staying under
max gross. This is not always easy, and they do not always
climb well on a hot day when they are heavy, especially if
there is any density altitude at all. 500 foot circuits work
very well, but some people think they are illegal. Sigh.
So, for a 15x you need to find a competent instructor that
weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. Good luck!
PS Be careful of the carb ice in the 150. Not as much of
a problem in the 152.
PPS Like many Cessnas, the 15x descends marvellously.
max gross. This is not always easy, and they do not always
climb well on a hot day when they are heavy, especially if
there is any density altitude at all. 500 foot circuits work
very well, but some people think they are illegal. Sigh.
So, for a 15x you need to find a competent instructor that
weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. Good luck!
PS Be careful of the carb ice in the 150. Not as much of
a problem in the 152.
PPS Like many Cessnas, the 15x descends marvellously.
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Chuck Ellsworth
When I did my FAA Commercial Gyroplane Pilot License flight test the inspector had me do the figure eight around two points exercise with a wind of about twenty knots maintaining balanced flight and altitude.
That is very good flight test exercise.
By the way it was in a certified gyroplane a McCulloch J-2
[color=rgb(34, 34, 34)][font=Tahoma][/font][/color]
That is very good flight test exercise.
By the way it was in a certified gyroplane a McCulloch J-2
[color=rgb(34, 34, 34)][font=Tahoma][/font][/color]
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mcrit
[quote author=DeflectionShot link=topic=7671.msg21269#msg21269 date=1513953331]
So folks I'm planning on taking a basic aerobatics course in the spring as part of the bucket list but I want to do a bit work before in preparation. My local FTU doesn't have anything remotely capable of full aerobatics, but there are some things you can do in a 150 or 172. Any suggestions on maneuvers? Spins are an obvious one...lazy eights? Chandelles?
[/quote]
Wingovers. Fun, safe and approved (they are half of a lazy eight)
So folks I'm planning on taking a basic aerobatics course in the spring as part of the bucket list but I want to do a bit work before in preparation. My local FTU doesn't have anything remotely capable of full aerobatics, but there are some things you can do in a 150 or 172. Any suggestions on maneuvers? Spins are an obvious one...lazy eights? Chandelles?
[/quote]
Wingovers. Fun, safe and approved (they are half of a lazy eight)
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DeflectionShot
[quote]Yeah, but you have to keep the bank less than 60 degrees
or you get the nasty registered letter. Again.[/quote]
There's always something...
or you get the nasty registered letter. Again.[/quote]
There's always something...
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