Colonel it is very simple.
The flight schools have dumbed down training for so many years that the instructors truly believe the way they teach is the best way.
How many flight instructors do you know who can even recognise drift when landing, never mind correct for drift.
It truly frightens me to think that there are people with a pilot license that can not fly a circuit without a written check list.
Can you remember ever hearing of a truck driver who needed a written check list to start and drive their truck?
Design your ideal flight test
-
cgzro
I'd like to see a falling leaf as part of the PPL.
From 6000ft or so, enter a stall with say 25% power (not idle), and then keep wings level and do little taps on rudder to cause slight departures left and right. Do that for a few thousand feet and recover. Teaches how to fly at and beyond the stall and how to use rudder to stay upright. For bonus points execute a 360 degree turn while you do it.
From 6000ft or so, enter a stall with say 25% power (not idle), and then keep wings level and do little taps on rudder to cause slight departures left and right. Do that for a few thousand feet and recover. Teaches how to fly at and beyond the stall and how to use rudder to stay upright. For bonus points execute a 360 degree turn while you do it.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Multi-engine rating flight test:
1) normal ops
2) actual engine cut after takeoff. Examiner places board
inbetween prop and mixture controls to block pilot's view
of mixtures, one of which is pulled back. Candidate must:
- lower nose
- retract gear
- identify and feather failed engine
in a timely manner.
Aircraft must be capable of 300 fpm single engine climb rate with
gear retracted and prop feathered, at the given weight and density
altitude at the time of the engine failure.
Candidate must complete circuit and immediate landing on one
engine. Gear is not to be lowered until landing on the runway
is assured. Landing is to be completed with one engine feathered.
1) normal ops
2) actual engine cut after takeoff. Examiner places board
inbetween prop and mixture controls to block pilot's view
of mixtures, one of which is pulled back. Candidate must:
- lower nose
- retract gear
- identify and feather failed engine
in a timely manner.
Aircraft must be capable of 300 fpm single engine climb rate with
gear retracted and prop feathered, at the given weight and density
altitude at the time of the engine failure.
Candidate must complete circuit and immediate landing on one
engine. Gear is not to be lowered until landing on the runway
is assured. Landing is to be completed with one engine feathered.
-
Trey Kule
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:19 am
In general terms, I think the TC flight test and standards are fine the way they are.
The issue I have is the oral part seems to be excessively long.
As an example of how to do it, in the UK the IF ride was an IF flight...in IMC.
Two appraoaches, one hold. Yes, and a simulated engine failure.
The hardest part was an enroute TA/TL change.
No 375 questions on the oral part so fatigue was setting in before the flight. Post flight briefing was about 5 minutes
If I was to design a flight test rather than add a few fun things to do, I would like to see the preflight oral testing held to 5 minutes with no repeat of written exam questions, post flight briefing being very short, and the test treated by the examiner as a test, not a learning exercise.
The confusion between learning and testing is becoming a huge problem.
CGZRO: is your falling leaf a teaching or a testing exercise? If it is testing what would the flight test standard be for it,
CS: Back when I leaned to fly, on the multi ride, immediately after the missed was called and power was brought up they would fail an engine with a clip board covering the mixture controls.
The problem was that one day someone failed the test by retarding the wrong throttle and a couple people got killed.
In designing a test you have to keep in mind what can happen if the testee does the wrong thing,
If you only test the top 1% that probably would not be an issue, but that is not the group most examiners have to test.
The issue I have is the oral part seems to be excessively long.
As an example of how to do it, in the UK the IF ride was an IF flight...in IMC.
Two appraoaches, one hold. Yes, and a simulated engine failure.
The hardest part was an enroute TA/TL change.
No 375 questions on the oral part so fatigue was setting in before the flight. Post flight briefing was about 5 minutes
If I was to design a flight test rather than add a few fun things to do, I would like to see the preflight oral testing held to 5 minutes with no repeat of written exam questions, post flight briefing being very short, and the test treated by the examiner as a test, not a learning exercise.
The confusion between learning and testing is becoming a huge problem.
CGZRO: is your falling leaf a teaching or a testing exercise? If it is testing what would the flight test standard be for it,
CS: Back when I leaned to fly, on the multi ride, immediately after the missed was called and power was brought up they would fail an engine with a clip board covering the mixture controls.
The problem was that one day someone failed the test by retarding the wrong throttle and a couple people got killed.
In designing a test you have to keep in mind what can happen if the testee does the wrong thing,
If you only test the top 1% that probably would not be an issue, but that is not the group most examiners have to test.
-
Kartoon
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:34 am
Ideal flight test is no flight test, end of the story.
You do your "ideal" training and that's it.
If you are deemed competent enough with all exercises, why having to prove it again in some sort of a paperwork's jungle/flight test/PPC and all?
Anyway I treat my own PPC's as one more training session I have to do, nothing else.
You do your "ideal" training and that's it.
If you are deemed competent enough with all exercises, why having to prove it again in some sort of a paperwork's jungle/flight test/PPC and all?
Anyway I treat my own PPC's as one more training session I have to do, nothing else.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
It all has to do with the lack of trust that the regulator
has in flight training, that they closely supervise to
the point of micro-management.
Irony moment: Examiners, associated with the FTU,
quality-check the FTU.
Amazingly, no one ever sees any conflict of interest
with this arrangement.
has in flight training, that they closely supervise to
the point of micro-management.
Irony moment: Examiners, associated with the FTU,
quality-check the FTU.
Amazingly, no one ever sees any conflict of interest
with this arrangement.
-
David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
One problem is the test needs to be impartial and consistent.
My problem with testing and some of my flight training was difficulty in understanding what they wanted demonstrated.
I spent a long time demonstrating stalls in a 172. They wanted me to demonstrate the recovery, not a "real good stall." No one ever quite managed to explain that. At the time I kept thinking, "This thing isn't stalled yet. I better give it another few seconds. Ah that's better." I had flown a couple of Pipers, you could tell when those babies stalled.
[quote author=Kartoon link=topic=7094.msg19204#msg19204 date=1505746831]
Ideal flight test is no flight test, end of the story.
You do your "ideal" training and that's it.
If you are deemed competent enough with all exercises, why having to prove it again in some sort of a paperwork's jungle/flight test/PPC and all?
Anyway I treat my own PPC's as one more training session I have to do, nothing else.
[/quote]
That would be great if people were honest and every FTU had "ideal instructors" providing "ideal training." Then maybe everyone would be finished training and fully capable before getting issued a license/rating.
The concept is that the flight test is there so an examiner person, who should be impartial can make sure the candidate is skilled enough to hold the rating, license or diploma they are applying for. In case a dishonest FTU is sending candidates they like or who paid lots for training but are still not really ready for a new sticker in the pretty blue book people think is your passport.
An honest, impartial examiner would make sure the candidates don't just get certification they should not have.
Unfourtunately, the real examiners might just be another crook that passes some who should be stopped. Some others might be failing qualified pilots.
[quote author=Colonel Sanders]
Irony moment: Examiners, associated with the FTU,
quality-check the FTU.
Amazingly, no one ever sees any conflict of interest
with this arrangement.
[/quote]
Maybe Transport is not trusting the schools. Partially that stems from a few that end up sending candidates for testing that are not ready for it.
Then again you might also have a case where a person only sends very qualified candidates. Unfourtunately sometimes when someone with more pride than impartiality gets power in the real world, there is a possibility it can be abused.
"Buffalo Joe swore at me, fail a couple of his candidates."
[quote author=Trey Kule link=topic=7094.msg19201#msg19201 date=1505739755]
The issue I have is the oral part seems to be excessively long.
As an example of how to do it, in the UK the IF ride was an IF flight...in IMC.
Two appraoaches, one hold. Yes, and a simulated engine failure.
The hardest part was an enroute TA/TL change.
No 375 questions on the oral part so fatigue was setting in before the flight. Post flight briefing was about 5 minutes
If I was to design a flight test rather than add a few fun things to do, I would like to see the preflight oral testing held to 5 minutes with no repeat of written exam questions, post flight briefing being very short, and the test treated by the examiner as a test, not a learning exercise.[/quote]
What if the oral test was done the day before. I believe the reason they do an oral test is if I can't pass it, there may be no point wasting fuel to have me fail the practical.
[quote="Trey"]CS: Back when I leaned to fly, on the multi ride, immediately after the missed was called and power was brought up they would fail an engine with a clip board covering the mixture controls.
The problem was that one day someone failed the test by retarding the wrong throttle and a couple people got killed.
In designing a test you have to keep in mind what can happen if the testee does the wrong thing,
If you only test the top 1% that probably would not be an issue, but that is not the group most examiners have to test.
[/quote]
In theory, the examiner will be skilled enough that if I panic and touch the wrong throttle they call, [b]"I have control!"[/b] and take over before we crash.
Problem being I am pretty big and used to be strong before I panic. Like you suggest, that might go really bad quite quickly.
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=7094.msg19202#msg19202 date=1505744635]
Yes, it would be a real tragedy to cull a few examiners.
Too bad flight training can't prepare you for what can happen
and candidates have to pass regardless of their abilities.
[/quote]Maybe culling a very experienced little guy like Chuck and an under prepared gorilla like me, sounds good to a few but I'm not fully convinced.
:(
Anyway, I should finish a load of laundry, have a snack and go to the flying club.
My problem with testing and some of my flight training was difficulty in understanding what they wanted demonstrated.
I spent a long time demonstrating stalls in a 172. They wanted me to demonstrate the recovery, not a "real good stall." No one ever quite managed to explain that. At the time I kept thinking, "This thing isn't stalled yet. I better give it another few seconds. Ah that's better." I had flown a couple of Pipers, you could tell when those babies stalled.
[quote author=Kartoon link=topic=7094.msg19204#msg19204 date=1505746831]
Ideal flight test is no flight test, end of the story.
You do your "ideal" training and that's it.
If you are deemed competent enough with all exercises, why having to prove it again in some sort of a paperwork's jungle/flight test/PPC and all?
Anyway I treat my own PPC's as one more training session I have to do, nothing else.
[/quote]
That would be great if people were honest and every FTU had "ideal instructors" providing "ideal training." Then maybe everyone would be finished training and fully capable before getting issued a license/rating.
The concept is that the flight test is there so an examiner person, who should be impartial can make sure the candidate is skilled enough to hold the rating, license or diploma they are applying for. In case a dishonest FTU is sending candidates they like or who paid lots for training but are still not really ready for a new sticker in the pretty blue book people think is your passport.
An honest, impartial examiner would make sure the candidates don't just get certification they should not have.
Unfourtunately, the real examiners might just be another crook that passes some who should be stopped. Some others might be failing qualified pilots.
[quote author=Colonel Sanders]
Irony moment: Examiners, associated with the FTU,
quality-check the FTU.
Amazingly, no one ever sees any conflict of interest
with this arrangement.
[/quote]
Maybe Transport is not trusting the schools. Partially that stems from a few that end up sending candidates for testing that are not ready for it.
Then again you might also have a case where a person only sends very qualified candidates. Unfourtunately sometimes when someone with more pride than impartiality gets power in the real world, there is a possibility it can be abused.
"Buffalo Joe swore at me, fail a couple of his candidates."
[quote author=Trey Kule link=topic=7094.msg19201#msg19201 date=1505739755]
The issue I have is the oral part seems to be excessively long.
As an example of how to do it, in the UK the IF ride was an IF flight...in IMC.
Two appraoaches, one hold. Yes, and a simulated engine failure.
The hardest part was an enroute TA/TL change.
No 375 questions on the oral part so fatigue was setting in before the flight. Post flight briefing was about 5 minutes
If I was to design a flight test rather than add a few fun things to do, I would like to see the preflight oral testing held to 5 minutes with no repeat of written exam questions, post flight briefing being very short, and the test treated by the examiner as a test, not a learning exercise.[/quote]
What if the oral test was done the day before. I believe the reason they do an oral test is if I can't pass it, there may be no point wasting fuel to have me fail the practical.
[quote="Trey"]CS: Back when I leaned to fly, on the multi ride, immediately after the missed was called and power was brought up they would fail an engine with a clip board covering the mixture controls.
The problem was that one day someone failed the test by retarding the wrong throttle and a couple people got killed.
In designing a test you have to keep in mind what can happen if the testee does the wrong thing,
If you only test the top 1% that probably would not be an issue, but that is not the group most examiners have to test.
[/quote]
In theory, the examiner will be skilled enough that if I panic and touch the wrong throttle they call, [b]"I have control!"[/b] and take over before we crash.
Problem being I am pretty big and used to be strong before I panic. Like you suggest, that might go really bad quite quickly.
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=7094.msg19202#msg19202 date=1505744635]
Yes, it would be a real tragedy to cull a few examiners.
Too bad flight training can't prepare you for what can happen
and candidates have to pass regardless of their abilities.
[/quote]Maybe culling a very experienced little guy like Chuck and an under prepared gorilla like me, sounds good to a few but I'm not fully convinced.
:(
Anyway, I should finish a load of laundry, have a snack and go to the flying club.
-
Chuck Ellsworth
I never ever had a problem with any student overpowering me on a flight test.
The reason is simple, before the test started I made sure the student understood that any time during the flight I might " calmly " say I have control which meant they let go of the controls.
The secret is not letting the student get that focused they are not aware of what is happening.
I have done thousands of check rides during my career and never had a problem with someone not handing over control.
The reason is simple, before the test started I made sure the student understood that any time during the flight I might " calmly " say I have control which meant they let go of the controls.
The secret is not letting the student get that focused they are not aware of what is happening.
I have done thousands of check rides during my career and never had a problem with someone not handing over control.
-
David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
I also have never hesitated to reply, "You have control." and promptly move my hands and feet away from the controls to allow an instructor to take over. I just used us for a physical size example.
In addition to what you wrote, I hope I would be prepared enough before I took a multi engine PPC, to calmly confirm the correct engine before also calmly taking the correct actions.
The important things are, I finished some laundry and filled out a written renter's check thing at the Calgary Flying Club. I'm not ready for a flight tests right away but might be closer than I thought I would have been this morning.
In addition to what you wrote, I hope I would be prepared enough before I took a multi engine PPC, to calmly confirm the correct engine before also calmly taking the correct actions.
The important things are, I finished some laundry and filled out a written renter's check thing at the Calgary Flying Club. I'm not ready for a flight tests right away but might be closer than I thought I would have been this morning.
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