And I have been teaching flying since the fifties and I don't recall ever meeting a PPL taught on nose wheel airplanes that really knew how to use the rudder.
Teaching tail wheel flying.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
It is possible, but it never happens, because
the exercises involved are described as careless
and reckless contraventions by today's instructors:
1) Driving around at high alpha, doing turns,
dropping a wing and flying through the stall.
2) rolling around a point at slow speed
3) falling leaf
4) crosswind touch and go landings on one
main only. And without a crosswind.
But again, such exercises are thought of as
being dangerous today. Only [b]Bad People[/b] do
them. Not law-abiding, good, TC-fearing
instructors. You know. Paper-pushing penguins.
the exercises involved are described as careless
and reckless contraventions by today's instructors:
1) Driving around at high alpha, doing turns,
dropping a wing and flying through the stall.
2) rolling around a point at slow speed
3) falling leaf
4) crosswind touch and go landings on one
main only. And without a crosswind.
But again, such exercises are thought of as
being dangerous today. Only [b]Bad People[/b] do
them. Not law-abiding, good, TC-fearing
instructors. You know. Paper-pushing penguins.
-
David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
I did number 1 with Shiny. I also did a touch and go starting on the left main first, but it was in a crosswind. I don't think we did the other two. That touch and go was probably three years ago, or four.
I guess I won't be seeing anymore crosswinds if I continue on with flying, now that I am probably going to fly with one of the schools that has a crosswind cut off. ~sigh~ I started considering not flying anymore last year. I never thought that before.
I guess I won't be seeing anymore crosswinds if I continue on with flying, now that I am probably going to fly with one of the schools that has a crosswind cut off. ~sigh~ I started considering not flying anymore last year. I never thought that before.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]schools that has a crosswind cut off[/quote]
There's a school like that in Toronto. 5 knots, I'm told.
The bigger the school, the lower the crosswind allowed,
it seems.
I can understand low limits for (initial) solo, but for dual?
Oh yeah, I forgot. The instructor doesn't know how
to use the rudder pedals.
Good for the school's safety record. Bad for the student.
It ensures they crash after they leave. Some people might
think downloading safety like that is pretty despicable.
I used to send students up with the windsock straight out
across the runway. Cessna said that an average pilot
could handle 15 knots crosswind component in a 172 -
it's in the fucking POH - and my students were far above
an average PPL in stick & rudder skill.
[quote]considering not flying anymore last year[/quote]
Go to Reno. That will cheer you up.
[img width=500 height=261][/img]
There's a school like that in Toronto. 5 knots, I'm told.
The bigger the school, the lower the crosswind allowed,
it seems.
I can understand low limits for (initial) solo, but for dual?
Oh yeah, I forgot. The instructor doesn't know how
to use the rudder pedals.
Good for the school's safety record. Bad for the student.
It ensures they crash after they leave. Some people might
think downloading safety like that is pretty despicable.
I used to send students up with the windsock straight out
across the runway. Cessna said that an average pilot
could handle 15 knots crosswind component in a 172 -
it's in the fucking POH - and my students were far above
an average PPL in stick & rudder skill.
[quote]considering not flying anymore last year[/quote]
Go to Reno. That will cheer you up.
[img width=500 height=261][/img]
-
David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
I was just thinking about flying the C-172 in a full stall.
I think there are some other valuable things besides good practice using the foot rests I learned that day.
Before that, I thought a stall was a horrible thing you had to recover from as fast as possible. Many make it sound like if you don't recover in under 20 seconds you auger in, or break the airframe, maybe enter into some unrecoverable flat spin like in top gun, maybe a tiger will attack you.
For sure in many cases you might kill the poor instructor., definately could give them a heart attack, I was taught the stall was catastrophic!
The truth is, you need some extra altitude but not 30,000 feet. 5,000 or 6,000 above the ground is lots. The poor little plane won't maintain altitude until you break the stall, just not enough power but other wise it is a lot like slow flight, but also like gliding. You do have a terrible glide ratio, more like falling but just not as bad as I was lead to believe.
You can't do it for a long time since you are losing so much altitude but it seemed like a pretty long time since I never did it before.
It gave me a much better understanding of the stall and why I want to avoid it, unless I am practicing them in a safe area after doing a good HASEL check.
In my opinion it was good to replace ignorant fear of stalls with a much healthier respectful caution. Only took a couple of decades after I started flying to do that in a single lesson.
I think there are some other valuable things besides good practice using the foot rests I learned that day.
Before that, I thought a stall was a horrible thing you had to recover from as fast as possible. Many make it sound like if you don't recover in under 20 seconds you auger in, or break the airframe, maybe enter into some unrecoverable flat spin like in top gun, maybe a tiger will attack you.
For sure in many cases you might kill the poor instructor., definately could give them a heart attack, I was taught the stall was catastrophic!
The truth is, you need some extra altitude but not 30,000 feet. 5,000 or 6,000 above the ground is lots. The poor little plane won't maintain altitude until you break the stall, just not enough power but other wise it is a lot like slow flight, but also like gliding. You do have a terrible glide ratio, more like falling but just not as bad as I was lead to believe.
You can't do it for a long time since you are losing so much altitude but it seemed like a pretty long time since I never did it before.
It gave me a much better understanding of the stall and why I want to avoid it, unless I am practicing them in a safe area after doing a good HASEL check.
In my opinion it was good to replace ignorant fear of stalls with a much healthier respectful caution. Only took a couple of decades after I started flying to do that in a single lesson.
-
Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote] I was taught the stall was catastrophic[/quote]
It probably was, for your instructors. At 3000+ feet in
the practice area, straight and level.
One of my greatest pleasures in life, is to be in a vertical
downline at 500 feet at wide open throttle and lots of speed,
pointed at the runway numbers. Visuals are wonderful. Like
looking at the face of God.
Pull Clmax at max structural G, exit level at the surface with
a ton of speed, lots of energy for the next vertical maneuver.
Try it. You will like it. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
It probably was, for your instructors. At 3000+ feet in
the practice area, straight and level.
One of my greatest pleasures in life, is to be in a vertical
downline at 500 feet at wide open throttle and lots of speed,
pointed at the runway numbers. Visuals are wonderful. Like
looking at the face of God.
Pull Clmax at max structural G, exit level at the surface with
a ton of speed, lots of energy for the next vertical maneuver.
Try it. You will like it. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
-
Rookie Pilot
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:44 am
[quote author=David MacRay link=topic=6303.msg16696#msg16696 date=1495333912]
I did number 1 with Shiny. I also did a touch and go starting on the left main first, but it was in a crosswind. I don't think we did the other two. That touch and go was probably three years ago, or four.
I guess I won't be seeing anymore crosswinds if I continue on with flying, now that I am probably going to fly with one of the schools that has a crosswind cut off. ~sigh~ I started considering not flying anymore last year. I never thought that before.
[/quote]
Cessnas will handle a ton of crosswind, they have a ton of rudder authority. The challenge in a gusty crosswind, like a high angle 30- 35 knots, is the plane is too light (when alone) for the wing area. Doesn't want to easily sit down. Takeoffs in such conditions are pretty quick, then practically climbing sideways over the runway. Interesting flight I had up north, descended out from a high IMC on AP, so the plane is tracking towards the airport, looked for the airport 10 + mies ahead, couldn't see it.
Then looked out my right window -- saw it. Such was the drift with a 50 + knot 3000 upper wind. Said to myself, this will be interesting in the pattern, and it was. Rock and roll. But well within aircraft limits. Up north --most have only one runway, and often, no atis or anyone answering the radio. Wind sock, and judgment.
Stalls / Spins? A real risk in those conditions, but not likely in a Cessna. More likely in a cirrus, with a much higher stall speed and nasty stall characteristics. When on a left base with a stiff left crosswind, like 45 knots at circuit height, in a confined pattern, it's a challenge not to blow through the extended centreline. That leads to overbanking turning base to final, pull the nose up, stall spin die.
Looks like that's what happened to that Lear at TET. Don't raise the nose in that base to final turn.
Spins in a Cessna (at altitude) are a non event, with a Fwd C of G -- the plane will recover on its own. When I've done them, the challenge has been to get the plane to enter the spin -- they are so stable they resist entering a spin. Full power, full nose up, kick left rudder hard at the stall should do it. Sure plane would not spin to the right.
That horrible accident in Waterloo, those kids spun it with an aft C of G, couldn't recover, or panicked. I would like to think it was recoverable with a forceful elevator movement down, but I wouldn't want to try it with a lot of weight in the back.
I did number 1 with Shiny. I also did a touch and go starting on the left main first, but it was in a crosswind. I don't think we did the other two. That touch and go was probably three years ago, or four.
I guess I won't be seeing anymore crosswinds if I continue on with flying, now that I am probably going to fly with one of the schools that has a crosswind cut off. ~sigh~ I started considering not flying anymore last year. I never thought that before.
[/quote]
Cessnas will handle a ton of crosswind, they have a ton of rudder authority. The challenge in a gusty crosswind, like a high angle 30- 35 knots, is the plane is too light (when alone) for the wing area. Doesn't want to easily sit down. Takeoffs in such conditions are pretty quick, then practically climbing sideways over the runway. Interesting flight I had up north, descended out from a high IMC on AP, so the plane is tracking towards the airport, looked for the airport 10 + mies ahead, couldn't see it.
Then looked out my right window -- saw it. Such was the drift with a 50 + knot 3000 upper wind. Said to myself, this will be interesting in the pattern, and it was. Rock and roll. But well within aircraft limits. Up north --most have only one runway, and often, no atis or anyone answering the radio. Wind sock, and judgment.
Stalls / Spins? A real risk in those conditions, but not likely in a Cessna. More likely in a cirrus, with a much higher stall speed and nasty stall characteristics. When on a left base with a stiff left crosswind, like 45 knots at circuit height, in a confined pattern, it's a challenge not to blow through the extended centreline. That leads to overbanking turning base to final, pull the nose up, stall spin die.
Looks like that's what happened to that Lear at TET. Don't raise the nose in that base to final turn.
Spins in a Cessna (at altitude) are a non event, with a Fwd C of G -- the plane will recover on its own. When I've done them, the challenge has been to get the plane to enter the spin -- they are so stable they resist entering a spin. Full power, full nose up, kick left rudder hard at the stall should do it. Sure plane would not spin to the right.
That horrible accident in Waterloo, those kids spun it with an aft C of G, couldn't recover, or panicked. I would like to think it was recoverable with a forceful elevator movement down, but I wouldn't want to try it with a lot of weight in the back.
-
David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
Part of why I changed schools last time was because the one I switched to only had one runway, so they flew even if there was a crosswind and I wanted to become confident with cross wind landings again.
I am going to most like likely return to flying with instructors that are not allowed to fly if there is too much cross wind. I see no reason to get crabby about it, but I understand how if you think about it, it is definately some combination of sad and rediculas.
If students don't even get dual in crosswinds how can they learn to land with them?
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=6303.msg16709#msg16709 date=1495380748]
One of my greatest pleasures in life, is to be in a vertical
downline at 500 feet at wide open throttle and lots of speed,
pointed at the runway numbers. Visuals are wonderful. Like
looking at the face of God.
Pull Clmax at max structural G, exit level at the surface with
a ton of speed, lots of energy for the next vertical maneuver.
Try it. You will like it. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
[/quote]
Yup, that should wake up the 20 year old class four that had the misfortune to be available for my renters checkout that day. Springbank tower should enjoy watching.
I have not been to that FTU, or what has become a fairly high density airspace, for several years now, maybe it is better. I fear it is not, but will sing their praises if they at least do dual crosswind training.
They do have a citabria. I would like to at least get fully current and safe for solo in the mighty 172 actually flying regularly, before considering some tail wheel training, even if that makes me a chicken or worse in Chuck's opinion. We can't say prudent, right? I just don't think it would be worth it if I'm not staying current at all.
I am going to most like likely return to flying with instructors that are not allowed to fly if there is too much cross wind. I see no reason to get crabby about it, but I understand how if you think about it, it is definately some combination of sad and rediculas.
If students don't even get dual in crosswinds how can they learn to land with them?
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=6303.msg16709#msg16709 date=1495380748]
One of my greatest pleasures in life, is to be in a vertical
downline at 500 feet at wide open throttle and lots of speed,
pointed at the runway numbers. Visuals are wonderful. Like
looking at the face of God.
Pull Clmax at max structural G, exit level at the surface with
a ton of speed, lots of energy for the next vertical maneuver.
Try it. You will like it. Never fails to put a smile on my face.
[/quote]
Yup, that should wake up the 20 year old class four that had the misfortune to be available for my renters checkout that day. Springbank tower should enjoy watching.
I have not been to that FTU, or what has become a fairly high density airspace, for several years now, maybe it is better. I fear it is not, but will sing their praises if they at least do dual crosswind training.
They do have a citabria. I would like to at least get fully current and safe for solo in the mighty 172 actually flying regularly, before considering some tail wheel training, even if that makes me a chicken or worse in Chuck's opinion. We can't say prudent, right? I just don't think it would be worth it if I'm not staying current at all.
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