Scudrunners

Hi all,

I know there are some aerobatic savy pilots on this board, so I was wondering if any of you could give me some info on what the differences are (flying/handling/spare parts/maintenance wise) between a pitts s1s and an ultimate 10-180. I have been pitts hunting for a while now, and only found out recently about the ultimate 10-180.

Thank you,
digits

What kind of acro do you plan on flying?

This is kind of a complicated question because
even trying to define an S1 can be complicated.

Short or long fuselage?  2 or 4 ailerons?  Flat
bottom or round wing?

Some S1's even have Ultimate wings!  In fact,
I flew an S1 that was rebuilt with squared-off
wings that kind of ultimate-ish.

There are many different versions of the 10-XXX
Ultimate.  Actually there is also the 20-xxx and
30-xxx.  I checked out (and flew) a 10-160 ultimate
and while the roll rate was good, it was very heavy
which really hurt the vertical.

Weight is another crucial parameter, as is prop.
Most people don't run c/s prop on S1 because of
the weight and expense, except for the factory
S-1T which Peter has.  Most people run fixed
pitch - I recommended metal 2-blade with a
pumped engine - and wind it up it 3300 rpm.

You probably want parallel valve, not angle valve
to save 36 lbs.

This probably didn't help much, sorry.  I might
suggest you check out Budd Davison's website
and also contact Gord Price directly.  Last I heard
he was flying a YAK-50 on the airshow circuit.  I
was at a show that was rained out, we were sitting
in the hangar, and he got his violin out of the YAK
and started to play his "Ode To The Unflown Sequence"

[quote author=Strega link=topic=4492.msg11807#msg11807 date=1476139117]
What kind of acro do you plan on flying?
[/quote]

Just starting out, but I'd like an airplane I can hold on for a long time. Buying planes is easy (at least I thought it was untill the amount of "sellers" not wanting to sell at the last minutes is way too high), selling them again is much harder, so I'd prefer to buy one that will "last a long time".


Colonel, I was talking specifically about an S1S (with short fuselage, 4 ailerons, don't know about the wings exactly) vs a 10-180 but I see your point.

You should look at a Sorrell Hyperbipe, it is a side by side two place biplane that is comfortable and fast for X/country flying and capable of unlimited aerobatics.


I met a woman aerobatic pilot at an airshow in Oregon after she did a very impressive airshow in one, I have a picture of her and her airplane somewhere...I am trying to remember her name but my mind went blank.


Anyhow there are a few around and I would buy one if I wanted a fun multi purpose airplane.


Maybe the Colonel as flown one???

I have not flown an Ultimate but I have competed against a few and know a few guys that owned them. Andy has flow S-1S's and my T and of course B's and C's so he can give much better comparative info.


The Pitts have the advantage of being easy to get parts for. There are lots of companies that make wings, tail feathers etc. so you can fairly easily get the parts , maintain, modify etc. them and of course with enough money the factory will make you parts. In fact some of the 3rd party wings that you can get for Pitts look a lot like Ultimate wings and give the same kind of improved roll rates.


As Andy points out the Ultimates tend to be a bit heavier. Some of the S-1S's for example are only 750lbs or so which makes for a real rocket ship while the 360 powered Ultimates in the 1000lb range are a bit more of a dog but you can make up for that with faster/cleaner flying. Guy in Vermont had a nice purple one, which was actually rebuilt by my mechanic in Oshawa, but unfortunately it lost a prop and he had to bail out. He put on a really nice show in it at Gatineau few years ago.


Anyway if the fabric is in good shape and the engine is nice and it looks well maintained then you could do a lot worse than to have an Ultimate to play with ;)

As Peter points out, internal corrosion of the Lycoming
and fabric/paint condition are tremendously important.

Don't buy a project - at any price.  Unless you really
know what you are doing, you will spend far more time
and money rebuilding it than you could imagine.  Buy a
flying airplane, which isn't making any metal.

You will learn to touch up cracking paint.  No big deal.

As far as the wings go ... well, don't buy Sparcraft,
and don't turn your nose up at flat-bottom wings -
they fly +ve G very well.  Not many people fly that
much -ve G, which is where the round wing shines.

As far as ailerons/roll rate goes ... learn to snap
roll.  The S1 snap rolls better than anything else
I've ever flown, so use it.  For example, in the
inverted 45 downline of a 1/2 cu-8, do an inside
or outside 1/2 snap to upright.  I remember as
a little kid, watching Gene Soucy snap roll on
final in the early 1970's to lose airspeed.  Neat.


I cannot emphasize how important weight is!
Do not buy a heavy airplane.  Many homebuilts
are real porkers. 

Every 6 lbs you can take off, is equivalent to adding
one horsepower and adding horsepower is incredibly
expensive, but many people have tried it with the S1.

Light weight and big horsepower (and a good prop)
gives you good vertical, which is extremely important.

Good vertical and good roll rate are the fundamental
qualities of a good aerobatic airplane.  Sure, you
want inverted fuel and oil, and a square stick, but
roll rate and vertical are fundamentally what you
are looking for.

I weigh 120 pounds which makes a Pitts really perform vertically.  :)

[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=4492.msg11815#msg11815 date=1476150088]
I met a woman aerobatic pilot at an airshow in Oregon after she did a very impressive airshow in one, I have a picture of her and her airplane somewhere...I am trying to remember her name but my mind went blank.
[/quote]


Are you thinking of Joann Osterud?

Yes that is the one, she flew for an airline at the time.  :)


It had to be in the late eighties .