a PBY will carry a two thousand pound over load with no real problem.

[Squaretail]

Why is it necessary to fill out a W&B form if the airplane is obviously within the W&B limits, like when you are flying it solo with half tanks?

There are lots of reasonable answers to that question. The main one being that the students don’t know that an airplane is within w&b limits until they are put through this exercise. That an airplane is within limits should be obvious to the experienced (though in my experience don’t count on that) is an unknown to a neophyte. One would hope that during the course of their training they will figure this out - after all I have never done one when flying my own planes privately - when it is warranted to make a calculation, but don’t count on it.

Now that said, if you are a career minded pilot, get used to filling these forms out, whether you think common sense dictates whether you need to or not. My COM says I have to, so I do. Though full disclosure, I usually just copy one of my standard config w&b, since my common sense dictates that for the same load out, I don’t need to practice the addition again.

At the end of the day, if someone wants you to do it, it’s a small price of admission. When I rented out airplanes, if anyone bitched about the paper, well I probably didn’t want them flying my planes anyways.

Small note for you students, demonstrating to the examiner that you can calculate a w&b is also a flight test item.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck Ellsworth wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:29 pm
Why is it necessary to fill out a W&B form if the airplane is obviously within the W&B limits, like when you are flying it solo with half tanks?

There are lots of reasonable answers to that question.

I am unable to think of anything reasonable that would prevent one from knowing the airplane was within W&B limits in the above example.

Can you enlighten me on this?

[Liquid_Charlie]

I think that pilots should know instinctively the approx T/O weight and if you are in balance. I know new pilots might not have this skill but why is that. Why wouldn't instructors give a bit of practical 101 to all aspects of learning to fly.

It also goes for some large aircraft. When I was flying the herc we never had a w&b done before we were cruising at altitude. The load master would give you the T/O and just say it's a tab nose or tail heavy. It was easy to tell on the herc just from nose wheel extension as you climb up the airstairs.

I have seen light aircraft, like a Cherokee taxi out and the nose wheel oleo was actually fully extended. Crazy fucking american fishermen. Most got away with it and some didn't.

So in this day of rules and anal preoccupation with rules and covering your ass you need to do it but where and when is another matter

Weight and balance should be an instinctive application of your knowledge not just generating a few numbers that actually don't mean much. I find pilots are terrible at math and copying numbers correctly. I find that any aircraft, after T/O power application, will tell you prior to flight if you are in the flight envelope. In most cases there is lots of time to reject.

[CpnCrunch]

I am unable to think of anything reasonable that would prevent one from knowing the airplane was within W&B limits in the above example.

Can you enlighten me on this?

I think the issue is simply knowing whether the student grasps the concept and will actually do the w+b when necessary.

[CpnCrunch]

two adults of average weight each with a flight bag in a 4 seat aircraft should be pretty easy to guess that it will be fine.

You would assume that, but it's not always the case. 2x180lb guys won't fit in the front of a 1970s Seminole with full tanks.

[TwinOtterFan]

two adults of average weight each with a flight bag in a 4 seat aircraft should be pretty easy to guess that it will be fine.

You would assume that, but it's not always the case. 2x180lb guys won't fit in the front of a 1970s Seminole with full tanks.

Noted! I should have said the 172 I'm flying not just "4 seater" We still fill out the computer form every flight but since the plane, passengers and bags never change neither does the info.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Noted! I should have said the 172 I'm flying not just "4 seater" We still fill out the computer form every flight but since the plane, passengers and bags never change neither does the info.

My point TwinOtterFan is that you already know that the W&B is within limits therefore the paper work is redundant therefore a waste of time.

So why waste time and paper?

[TwinOtterFan]

100% agree in my scenario it is always the same, if a factor were to change like adding a passenger or cargo, my assumption would be that it would still be fine. But I would actually do the calculation and check. But as I said I am a student and do what I am told.

[Squaretail]

I think that pilots should know instinctively the approx T/O weight and if you are in balance. I know new pilots might not have this skill but why is that. Why wouldn't instructors give a bit of practical 101 to all aspects of learning to fly.

Filling out a few w&b calculations and explaining what they mean is exactly what is entailed in that “practical 101”. If you feel this is just an intuitive subject, try explaining the concept to someone who isn’t a pilot sometime. Now try to do it without making any math references.

So in this day of rules and anal preoccupation with rules and covering your ass you need to do it but where and when is another matter

Exactly. Part of this process is the student learning some discretion. Here’s a thought for the crowd: would twinotterfan here have come to the conclusion that w&b is a matter of discretion in practical terms if he had never filled out a w&b form ever in his training and purely relied on his instructor’s intuition?

Weight and balance should be an instinctive application of your knowledge not just generating a few numbers that actually don't mean much. I find pilots are terrible at math and copying numbers correctly. I find that any aircraft, after T/O power application, will tell you prior to flight if you are in the flight envelope. In most cases there is lots of time to reject.

I wouldn’t want to bet my life on that, and I can speak to that from some of my more harrowing experiences. Many planes can get off the ground close to their book numbers when overweight, or close enough to that you think you are ok until you figure out your horrifically anemic performance is going to make you test your pilot skills at a tighter margin than normally comfortable.

Suffice to say an “instinctive” knowledge of weight and balance effects is something borne out of a larger pool of experience than the usual PPL course provides.

[Squaretail]

I am unable to think of anything reasonable that would prevent one from knowing the airplane was within W&B limits in the above example.

Can you enlighten me on this?

I think the issue is simply knowing whether the student grasps the concept and will actually do the w+b when necessary.

CpnCrunch figures out the obvious. Bright students will figure out the concept quick, but flight schools don’t have practices that reflect the abilities of their best students rather cater to the needs of their worst ones.