How Armchair Quarterbacking Makes You Look Like An Idiot
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Chuck Ellsworth
Bob was my role model when it came to flying skills, of course some in the FAA despised him because they were so inferior in skills they couldn't pour piss out of their boots if the instructions were printed on the soles.
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Napoleon So Low
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 8:58 pm
[quote author=JW Scud link=topic=7894.msg21871#msg21871 date=1517863430]
My position is that they should have known they had a leak and stupidly pumped the fuel out.[/quote]Wasn't there something about ignoring the checklist?
My position is that they should have known they had a leak and stupidly pumped the fuel out.[/quote]Wasn't there something about ignoring the checklist?
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Trans ... estigation]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Trans ... estigation[/url]
[quote]The Portuguese Aviation Accidents Prevention and Investigation Department (GPIAA) investigated the accident along with Canadian and French authorities.
The investigation revealed the cause of the accident was [b]a fuel leak in the #2 engine, caused by an incorrect part installed[/b] in the hydraulics system by Air Transat maintenance staff. Air Transat maintenance staff had replaced the engine as part of routine maintenance, using a spare engine, lent by Rolls-Royce, from an older model. This borrowed engine did not include a hydraulic pump. [b]Despite the lead mechanic's concerns[/b], Air Transat ordered the use of a part from a similar engine, an adaptation that did not maintain adequate clearance between the hydraulic lines and the fuel line. This lack of clearance — on the order of millimetres from the intended part — allowed chafing between the lines to rupture the fuel line, causing the leak. Air Transat accepted responsibility for the accident and was [b]fined 250,000 Canadian dollars[/b] by the Canadian government, which as of 2009 was [b]the largest fine in Canadian history[/b].
[b]Pilot error was also listed as one of the lead causes of the accident (for failing to identify the fuel leak)[/b]. Nevertheless, the pilots returned to a heroes' welcome from the Canadian press as a result of their successful unpowered landing. In 2002, Captain Piché was awarded the Superior Airmanship Award by the Air Line Pilots' Association.
The accident also led to the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation (DGAC) and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issuing an Airworthiness Directive, requiring all operators of Airbus models A318, A319, A320 and A321 narrow body aircraft to [b]revise the flight manual[/b], stressing that crews should check that any fuel imbalance is not caused by a fuel leak before opening the cross-feed valve. The French Airworthiness Directive (AD) [b]required all airlines operating these Airbus models to make revisions to the Flight Manual before any further flights were allowed[/b]. The FAA gave a 15-day grace period before enforcing the AD. [b]Airbus also modified its computer systems[/b]; the on-board computer now checks all fuel levels against the flight plan. It now gives a clear warning if more fuel is being lost than the engines can consume. Rolls-Royce also issued a bulletin advising of the incompatibility of the relevant engine parts.[/quote]
Armchair quarterbacks are assholes. Telling us
that you are smarter than the crew is completely
useless, unless you are suggesting mandating a
regulatory change so that [b]only people with an IQ
higher than 160 will be allowed to obtain pilot's
licences.[/b]
Hey, I'm up for that. Who else is? I'm not as
young as I used to be, but after a couple of tries
I bet I could still peg an IQ test.
C'mon, internet geniuses! Bet your ATPL that
[b]you're smarter than everyone else[/b]. That's your
narrative that you're pushing, isn't it?
[quote]The Portuguese Aviation Accidents Prevention and Investigation Department (GPIAA) investigated the accident along with Canadian and French authorities.
The investigation revealed the cause of the accident was [b]a fuel leak in the #2 engine, caused by an incorrect part installed[/b] in the hydraulics system by Air Transat maintenance staff. Air Transat maintenance staff had replaced the engine as part of routine maintenance, using a spare engine, lent by Rolls-Royce, from an older model. This borrowed engine did not include a hydraulic pump. [b]Despite the lead mechanic's concerns[/b], Air Transat ordered the use of a part from a similar engine, an adaptation that did not maintain adequate clearance between the hydraulic lines and the fuel line. This lack of clearance — on the order of millimetres from the intended part — allowed chafing between the lines to rupture the fuel line, causing the leak. Air Transat accepted responsibility for the accident and was [b]fined 250,000 Canadian dollars[/b] by the Canadian government, which as of 2009 was [b]the largest fine in Canadian history[/b].
[b]Pilot error was also listed as one of the lead causes of the accident (for failing to identify the fuel leak)[/b]. Nevertheless, the pilots returned to a heroes' welcome from the Canadian press as a result of their successful unpowered landing. In 2002, Captain Piché was awarded the Superior Airmanship Award by the Air Line Pilots' Association.
The accident also led to the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation (DGAC) and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issuing an Airworthiness Directive, requiring all operators of Airbus models A318, A319, A320 and A321 narrow body aircraft to [b]revise the flight manual[/b], stressing that crews should check that any fuel imbalance is not caused by a fuel leak before opening the cross-feed valve. The French Airworthiness Directive (AD) [b]required all airlines operating these Airbus models to make revisions to the Flight Manual before any further flights were allowed[/b]. The FAA gave a 15-day grace period before enforcing the AD. [b]Airbus also modified its computer systems[/b]; the on-board computer now checks all fuel levels against the flight plan. It now gives a clear warning if more fuel is being lost than the engines can consume. Rolls-Royce also issued a bulletin advising of the incompatibility of the relevant engine parts.[/quote]
Armchair quarterbacks are assholes. Telling us
that you are smarter than the crew is completely
useless, unless you are suggesting mandating a
regulatory change so that [b]only people with an IQ
higher than 160 will be allowed to obtain pilot's
licences.[/b]
Hey, I'm up for that. Who else is? I'm not as
young as I used to be, but after a couple of tries
I bet I could still peg an IQ test.
C'mon, internet geniuses! Bet your ATPL that
[b]you're smarter than everyone else[/b]. That's your
narrative that you're pushing, isn't it?
-
Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]C'mon, internet geniuses! Bet your ATPL that
[b]you're smarter than everyone else[/b]. That's your
narrative that you're pushing, isn't it?[/quote]
Why not bet something that is a bit harder to get than a Canadian ATPL?
The bar is not very high to get one therefore it is not really much of a measure of IQ.
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JW Scud
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:44 am
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=7894.msg21900#msg21900 date=1517959318]
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Trans ... estigation]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Trans ... estigation[/url]
[quote]The Portuguese Aviation Accidents Prevention and Investigation Department (GPIAA) investigated the accident along with Canadian and French authorities.
The investigation revealed the cause of the accident was [b]a fuel leak in the #2 engine, caused by an incorrect part installed[/b] in the hydraulics system by Air Transat maintenance staff. Air Transat maintenance staff had replaced the engine as part of routine maintenance, using a spare engine, lent by Rolls-Royce, from an older model. This borrowed engine did not include a hydraulic pump. [b]Despite the lead mechanic's concerns[/b], Air Transat ordered the use of a part from a similar engine, an adaptation that did not maintain adequate clearance between the hydraulic lines and the fuel line. This lack of clearance — on the order of millimetres from the intended part — allowed chafing between the lines to rupture the fuel line, causing the leak. Air Transat accepted responsibility for the accident and was [b]fined 250,000 Canadian dollars[/b] by the Canadian government, which as of 2009 was [b]the largest fine in Canadian history[/b].
[b]Pilot error was also listed as one of the lead causes of the accident (for failing to identify the fuel leak)[/b]. Nevertheless, the pilots returned to a heroes' welcome from the Canadian press as a result of their successful unpowered landing. In 2002, Captain Piché was awarded the Superior Airmanship Award by the Air Line Pilots' Association.
The accident also led to the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation (DGAC) and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issuing an Airworthiness Directive, requiring all operators of Airbus models A318, A319, A320 and A321 narrow body aircraft to [b]revise the flight manual[/b], stressing that crews should check that any fuel imbalance is not caused by a fuel leak before opening the cross-feed valve. The French Airworthiness Directive (AD) [b]required all airlines operating these Airbus models to make revisions to the Flight Manual before any further flights were allowed[/b]. The FAA gave a 15-day grace period before enforcing the AD. [b]Airbus also modified its computer systems[/b]; the on-board computer now checks all fuel levels against the flight plan. It now gives a clear warning if more fuel is being lost than the engines can consume. Rolls-Royce also issued a bulletin advising of the incompatibility of the relevant engine parts.[/quote]
Armchair quarterbacks are assholes. Telling us
that you are smarter than the crew is completely
useless, unless you are suggesting mandating a
regulatory change so that [b]only people with an IQ
higher than 160 will be allowed to obtain pilot's
licences.[/b]
Hey, I'm up for that. Who else is? I'm not as
young as I used to be, but after a couple of tries
I bet I could still peg an IQ test.
C'mon, internet geniuses! Bet your ATPL that
[b]you're smarter than everyone else[/b]. That's your
narrative that you're pushing, isn't it?
[/quote]
I guess when I had my fuel leak, I could have been stupid enough to continue and then blame the fuel cap seal manufacturer when I ran out of gas and crashed.
Have had several engine/prop malfunctions on multi-engine aircraft, could have screwed up, lost control and crashed and then said Hey it was the engine manufacturers fault that I don't know how to fly an aircraft.
Of course, the cause of the failure is partly responsible for the incident. But that is why we are trained to deal with the incident. Some just don't follow their training. Like opening the crossfeed when there is an obvious leak. Maybe that should be a question on the IQ test.
I believe the manufacturers also changed their checklists on how to deal with a fire after several cases of delayed landings. Perhaps you are right sometimes when you said you can't tell a four bars much. Certainly the few that you call heros(the ones who heroically got themselves out of their own created predicament). Now we need to be completely babied through on the checklists to do the obvious. Fuel is leaking, don't crossfeed to that side. Plane is burning, land now.
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Trans ... estigation]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Trans ... estigation[/url]
[quote]The Portuguese Aviation Accidents Prevention and Investigation Department (GPIAA) investigated the accident along with Canadian and French authorities.
The investigation revealed the cause of the accident was [b]a fuel leak in the #2 engine, caused by an incorrect part installed[/b] in the hydraulics system by Air Transat maintenance staff. Air Transat maintenance staff had replaced the engine as part of routine maintenance, using a spare engine, lent by Rolls-Royce, from an older model. This borrowed engine did not include a hydraulic pump. [b]Despite the lead mechanic's concerns[/b], Air Transat ordered the use of a part from a similar engine, an adaptation that did not maintain adequate clearance between the hydraulic lines and the fuel line. This lack of clearance — on the order of millimetres from the intended part — allowed chafing between the lines to rupture the fuel line, causing the leak. Air Transat accepted responsibility for the accident and was [b]fined 250,000 Canadian dollars[/b] by the Canadian government, which as of 2009 was [b]the largest fine in Canadian history[/b].
[b]Pilot error was also listed as one of the lead causes of the accident (for failing to identify the fuel leak)[/b]. Nevertheless, the pilots returned to a heroes' welcome from the Canadian press as a result of their successful unpowered landing. In 2002, Captain Piché was awarded the Superior Airmanship Award by the Air Line Pilots' Association.
The accident also led to the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation (DGAC) and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issuing an Airworthiness Directive, requiring all operators of Airbus models A318, A319, A320 and A321 narrow body aircraft to [b]revise the flight manual[/b], stressing that crews should check that any fuel imbalance is not caused by a fuel leak before opening the cross-feed valve. The French Airworthiness Directive (AD) [b]required all airlines operating these Airbus models to make revisions to the Flight Manual before any further flights were allowed[/b]. The FAA gave a 15-day grace period before enforcing the AD. [b]Airbus also modified its computer systems[/b]; the on-board computer now checks all fuel levels against the flight plan. It now gives a clear warning if more fuel is being lost than the engines can consume. Rolls-Royce also issued a bulletin advising of the incompatibility of the relevant engine parts.[/quote]
Armchair quarterbacks are assholes. Telling us
that you are smarter than the crew is completely
useless, unless you are suggesting mandating a
regulatory change so that [b]only people with an IQ
higher than 160 will be allowed to obtain pilot's
licences.[/b]
Hey, I'm up for that. Who else is? I'm not as
young as I used to be, but after a couple of tries
I bet I could still peg an IQ test.
C'mon, internet geniuses! Bet your ATPL that
[b]you're smarter than everyone else[/b]. That's your
narrative that you're pushing, isn't it?
[/quote]
I guess when I had my fuel leak, I could have been stupid enough to continue and then blame the fuel cap seal manufacturer when I ran out of gas and crashed.
Have had several engine/prop malfunctions on multi-engine aircraft, could have screwed up, lost control and crashed and then said Hey it was the engine manufacturers fault that I don't know how to fly an aircraft.
Of course, the cause of the failure is partly responsible for the incident. But that is why we are trained to deal with the incident. Some just don't follow their training. Like opening the crossfeed when there is an obvious leak. Maybe that should be a question on the IQ test.
I believe the manufacturers also changed their checklists on how to deal with a fire after several cases of delayed landings. Perhaps you are right sometimes when you said you can't tell a four bars much. Certainly the few that you call heros(the ones who heroically got themselves out of their own created predicament). Now we need to be completely babied through on the checklists to do the obvious. Fuel is leaking, don't crossfeed to that side. Plane is burning, land now.
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Nark1
I did a straight in Loc Approach in the Sim the other day.
Holy poop... I was waiting for the nuclear holocaust to kick off. Some asshole was on the runway, of course. The ATCer, who resembled the check airmen called a go-around. Because of the near catastrophic disaster that just unfolded, he thought it was best to vector me around for a Cat 3 approach. (to you young-ins, that's an autoland in the biz).
It couldn't have been more perfect, if I was flying it! (well mostly because it wouldn't be a Cat 3 Fail Operational with me hand flying it...). Low and behold, a power outage cause the localizer to fail...
Go-Around, Flaps!!!!
Time for another one! This was getting serious, we were down to 14,000 lbs of fuel. Basically 140 minutes of play time before flameout. No time to brief the approach again, we are gong to make it!!
"Land Green"
"100", LANDING!!!! I screamed.
"Flare"
"retard, RETARD!" It was getting personal now...
We rolled out, exited in a manner any American Airlines MD80 captan would be proud of! (for you unaware, those assholes taxi slower than the earth rotates)
If that reckless engagement of nearly having to hand fly wasn't enough, the Check airmen, decided it was best to reposition for takeoff again. It's amazing, every time this happens, the engine fails. It's a no wonder we aren't flying the NEO's... Too much proficiency in V1 cuts.
"Cleared for takeoff," He bellows.
Well it's a good thing I did legs this morning, because I'm ready with that rudder.
"V1" BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Son of a bitch, it always does that... We should ask for our money back in this simulators. The airplane is alway breaking.
"I have control, and ATC. ECAM Actions!" I command, like a Somali pirate.
We climb like Rita McNeil up Mt McKinley. I jostle this French made pig around for another landing. I guess we aren't having margarita's by the pool in Long Beach.
We roll to a stop. Set the parking brake, and the fire Marshall says I'm not on fire. Good enough for me.
"Good enough job, Nark". You get to keep your job for another 6 months.
Holy poop... I was waiting for the nuclear holocaust to kick off. Some asshole was on the runway, of course. The ATCer, who resembled the check airmen called a go-around. Because of the near catastrophic disaster that just unfolded, he thought it was best to vector me around for a Cat 3 approach. (to you young-ins, that's an autoland in the biz).
It couldn't have been more perfect, if I was flying it! (well mostly because it wouldn't be a Cat 3 Fail Operational with me hand flying it...). Low and behold, a power outage cause the localizer to fail...
Go-Around, Flaps!!!!
Time for another one! This was getting serious, we were down to 14,000 lbs of fuel. Basically 140 minutes of play time before flameout. No time to brief the approach again, we are gong to make it!!
"Land Green"
"100", LANDING!!!! I screamed.
"Flare"
"retard, RETARD!" It was getting personal now...
We rolled out, exited in a manner any American Airlines MD80 captan would be proud of! (for you unaware, those assholes taxi slower than the earth rotates)
If that reckless engagement of nearly having to hand fly wasn't enough, the Check airmen, decided it was best to reposition for takeoff again. It's amazing, every time this happens, the engine fails. It's a no wonder we aren't flying the NEO's... Too much proficiency in V1 cuts.
"Cleared for takeoff," He bellows.
Well it's a good thing I did legs this morning, because I'm ready with that rudder.
"V1" BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Son of a bitch, it always does that... We should ask for our money back in this simulators. The airplane is alway breaking.
"I have control, and ATC. ECAM Actions!" I command, like a Somali pirate.
We climb like Rita McNeil up Mt McKinley. I jostle this French made pig around for another landing. I guess we aren't having margarita's by the pool in Long Beach.
We roll to a stop. Set the parking brake, and the fire Marshall says I'm not on fire. Good enough for me.
"Good enough job, Nark". You get to keep your job for another 6 months.
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Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]I jostle this French made pig around for another landing.[/quote]
French pigs can be fun Nark. :)
French pigs can be fun Nark. :)
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