[quote author=Trey Kule link=topic=8036.msg22286#msg22286 date=1520120513]
Ah, digits....
[font=verdana]Btw. In the end, the testee was passed on that exercise...A grown man bawling helplessly while talking about law suits is apparently an effective negotiating strategy.[/font][font=verdana]
Is the humour in the above too subtle?
[/font][/quote][font=verdana]
Probably. Not sure where the joke is in there.
[/font]
Approach to a Stall
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:46 pm
I think you guys are missing the point of this. Imagine it was a fixed gear plane and the examiner says "I want you to pull the power to idle, hold altitude and. Then recover at the [i]first[/i] sign of an approaching stall." Would you not agree that holding altitude with power off will only end one way?
As written and as stated by most examiners, recovery as soon as you recognize you don't have sufficient power to hold altitude is technically correct though what they're really looking for is a recovery at the stall horn/stick shaker/stick pusher/buffett. Oh, and this is not all hypothetical as I'm an examiner. If somebody recovered immediately upon power reduction on a ride I was administering I would probably just chuckle and say that I'd like to see it again with a recovery initiated at the stall warning. Most disagreements on rides (especially PPCs) come about when the examiner has an axe to grind.
As written and as stated by most examiners, recovery as soon as you recognize you don't have sufficient power to hold altitude is technically correct though what they're really looking for is a recovery at the stall horn/stick shaker/stick pusher/buffett. Oh, and this is not all hypothetical as I'm an examiner. If somebody recovered immediately upon power reduction on a ride I was administering I would probably just chuckle and say that I'd like to see it again with a recovery initiated at the stall warning. Most disagreements on rides (especially PPCs) come about when the examiner has an axe to grind.
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digits
[quote author=Slick Goodlin link=topic=8036.msg22291#msg22291 date=1520137292]
I think you guys are missing the point of this. Imagine it was a fixed gear plane and the examiner says "I want you to pull the power to idle, hold altitude and. Then recover at the [i]first[/i] sign of an approaching stall." Would you not agree that holding altitude with power off will only end one way?
[/quote]
So you can recover as soon as power goes to idle? Because you know what's going to happen?
What's next, go full power and climb during an emergency descent because the gear warning horn goes off?
Lower the gear during a stall recovery because you think the stall warning is the gear horn warning?
I don't want to claim that a pilot confusing the stall warning and gear warning during a PPC ride made an unforgiveable mistake, but I am quite surprised by all the excuses that are written here to justify it.
Unless you are all joking again and I don't get it ???
I think you guys are missing the point of this. Imagine it was a fixed gear plane and the examiner says "I want you to pull the power to idle, hold altitude and. Then recover at the [i]first[/i] sign of an approaching stall." Would you not agree that holding altitude with power off will only end one way?
[/quote]
So you can recover as soon as power goes to idle? Because you know what's going to happen?
What's next, go full power and climb during an emergency descent because the gear warning horn goes off?
Lower the gear during a stall recovery because you think the stall warning is the gear horn warning?
I don't want to claim that a pilot confusing the stall warning and gear warning during a PPC ride made an unforgiveable mistake, but I am quite surprised by all the excuses that are written here to justify it.
Unless you are all joking again and I don't get it ???
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John Swallow
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 pm
"So here is a recent scenario... During a ride the testee was instructed to do a level, straight ahead power off deaccelerstion and recover at the first indication of an imminent stall."
I'm with Slick. The examiner was not clear enough in his instructions.
I would have the candidate execute another stall...
"Back in the day" before bells, whistles, horns, and AOA indicators, stall recovery was not initiated until buffet was felt on the elevators or the aircraft stalled.
Most sim training (light biz jets) had us executing recovery procedures at the horn... Still well above the stall speed. Never lost any altitude. Exercise in precision flying.
PS Even if the candidate mistook the gear horn for the stall warning, his reaction was probably the one you'd rather see than "Huh. That's interesting: we're nowhere near the stall..."
I'm with Slick. The examiner was not clear enough in his instructions.
I would have the candidate execute another stall...
"Back in the day" before bells, whistles, horns, and AOA indicators, stall recovery was not initiated until buffet was felt on the elevators or the aircraft stalled.
Most sim training (light biz jets) had us executing recovery procedures at the horn... Still well above the stall speed. Never lost any altitude. Exercise in precision flying.
PS Even if the candidate mistook the gear horn for the stall warning, his reaction was probably the one you'd rather see than "Huh. That's interesting: we're nowhere near the stall..."
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:46 pm
[quote author=digits link=topic=8036.msg22292#msg22292 date=1520138612]
So you can recover as soon as power goes to idle? Because you know what's going to happen?
[/quote]
That's not the aim of the exercise, but yes technically the first sign of the approaching stall would be when you recognize you're trying to hold altitude with the power at idle. I'm not talking about using the gear horn as a stall horn, I'm talking about understanding how an airplane flies. You know, the pilot using their brain.
So you can recover as soon as power goes to idle? Because you know what's going to happen?
[/quote]
That's not the aim of the exercise, but yes technically the first sign of the approaching stall would be when you recognize you're trying to hold altitude with the power at idle. I'm not talking about using the gear horn as a stall horn, I'm talking about understanding how an airplane flies. You know, the pilot using their brain.
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JW Scud
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:44 am
Old Boeing jet, top of descent, mach 0.84, thrust levers brought to idle, what happens? If the FE is sharp and is already hold a particular lever aft, there is no warning horn. If he is slow or forgot, gear warning horn sounds loudly and then he pulls the lever to cancel the horn. Nothing to do with a stall. And one would look rather foolish doing a stall recovery procedure at that point.
If I were the examiner on this particular flight, I would ask the student if he knew what the sound was from. If answered correctly and he knows that this has nothing to do with a stall, then I would ask him to do a second approach to stall with recovery at the first indication of a stall. If he did the same, he would fail. If he did it properly, then a pass with a briefing note attached to the report(if this sort of thing is done).
If I were the examiner on this particular flight, I would ask the student if he knew what the sound was from. If answered correctly and he knows that this has nothing to do with a stall, then I would ask him to do a second approach to stall with recovery at the first indication of a stall. If he did the same, he would fail. If he did it properly, then a pass with a briefing note attached to the report(if this sort of thing is done).
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Trey Kule
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:19 am
Power + Attitude. scud,
Try and maintain.that altitude and o84 with the throttles at idle. I am going to go out on a limb here and say you cant do it. And if you try to maintain altitude with the thrust at idle you will need to take some action to avoid or recover from a stall.
You have ignored the fact that in the ride, the aircraft was to be kept in level flight. I expect you know what is required to do that with the throttles at idle. The question is really one that requires a person to ignore instrument and visual indications, and then react to a warning.and specifically, if a gear horn can be considered a warning that some action is required. Different views on this.
The aircraft you are referring to , I assume has the gear horn solely linked to thrust. And you only dont look,silly because as the throttles are retarded and speed decays to whatever speed you wish to descend at, you pitch down....now on a flight test you do not pitch down until you get an indication of a worsening trend...see the difference?..and an AOA or ASI are not allowed to be used..Keep that in mind with your example.
[font=Verdana]I expect there may be a flight crew position for you with Air France.[/font]
Try and maintain.that altitude and o84 with the throttles at idle. I am going to go out on a limb here and say you cant do it. And if you try to maintain altitude with the thrust at idle you will need to take some action to avoid or recover from a stall.
You have ignored the fact that in the ride, the aircraft was to be kept in level flight. I expect you know what is required to do that with the throttles at idle. The question is really one that requires a person to ignore instrument and visual indications, and then react to a warning.and specifically, if a gear horn can be considered a warning that some action is required. Different views on this.
The aircraft you are referring to , I assume has the gear horn solely linked to thrust. And you only dont look,silly because as the throttles are retarded and speed decays to whatever speed you wish to descend at, you pitch down....now on a flight test you do not pitch down until you get an indication of a worsening trend...see the difference?..and an AOA or ASI are not allowed to be used..Keep that in mind with your example.
[font=Verdana]I expect there may be a flight crew position for you with Air France.[/font]
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=8036.msg22280#msg22280 date=1520103008]
Sounds like someone confused the gear horn with the stall warning?
It bugs the shit out of me that you could measure the time that
most pilots have spend in slow flight in seconds, but that's not
important right now.
You want to get an ATPL and spend 30 years earning $300,000/yr
for pushing buttons? Well, spend 30 seconds doing this:
[youtube][/youtube]
He just flies a stupid fucking red biplane, so that can't be very hard.
[/quote]
No replacement for displacement eh!
Sounds like someone confused the gear horn with the stall warning?
It bugs the shit out of me that you could measure the time that
most pilots have spend in slow flight in seconds, but that's not
important right now.
You want to get an ATPL and spend 30 years earning $300,000/yr
for pushing buttons? Well, spend 30 seconds doing this:
[youtube][/youtube]
He just flies a stupid fucking red biplane, so that can't be very hard.
[/quote]
No replacement for displacement eh!
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cgzro
Even without all that displacement its still a wonderful exercise (Falling Leaf) to get the nose up into a stall, keep it there with about 1/3rd power or so and just keep wings level with the rudder. Teaches so many things all at once and in a short time.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Depends on the Cl curve. If you've got a fat wing
where the Cl decreases gently after Clmax, life is
good in a falling leaf.
But if you're flying something NLF with a thin wing
and the point of max camber well aft, it can have
really amazing decrease in lift after Clmax.
[img width=500 height=361]https://sites.google.com/site/late631re ... %20AOA.PNG[/img]
Two airplanes I have flown that I think could be
very violent and nasty during a falling leaf would
be the P-51 and the Glasair III - you could easily
end up pointed vertically down, or upside down.
Of course, if you have FBW for your PID loop,
no problem.
I'm probably not explaining myself well. TC says
I shouldn't have an instructor rating, and maybe
they're right.
Like the breakaway characteristics of a tire -
the transition of static to sliding friction. I
would vastly prefer a tire with a lower threshold
with more gradual transition and breakaway
characteristics. Far more pleasurable to slide
around a corner, steering with the throttle.
Oops. Am I being a [b]BAD CANADIAN[/b] again,
because I like to get sideways in a corner?
I wonder if Arlo's going to try to take away my
pilot licence because he doesn't like how I ride
a motorcycle, this time?
[img width=500 height=344][/img]
where the Cl decreases gently after Clmax, life is
good in a falling leaf.
But if you're flying something NLF with a thin wing
and the point of max camber well aft, it can have
really amazing decrease in lift after Clmax.
[img width=500 height=361]https://sites.google.com/site/late631re ... %20AOA.PNG[/img]
Two airplanes I have flown that I think could be
very violent and nasty during a falling leaf would
be the P-51 and the Glasair III - you could easily
end up pointed vertically down, or upside down.
Of course, if you have FBW for your PID loop,
no problem.
I'm probably not explaining myself well. TC says
I shouldn't have an instructor rating, and maybe
they're right.
Like the breakaway characteristics of a tire -
the transition of static to sliding friction. I
would vastly prefer a tire with a lower threshold
with more gradual transition and breakaway
characteristics. Far more pleasurable to slide
around a corner, steering with the throttle.
Oops. Am I being a [b]BAD CANADIAN[/b] again,
because I like to get sideways in a corner?
I wonder if Arlo's going to try to take away my
pilot licence because he doesn't like how I ride
a motorcycle, this time?
[img width=500 height=344][/img]
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