"Interesting" read here:
https://encoresenioritycoalition.org/history
Encore and ALPA
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Eric Janson
- Posts: 412
- Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:31 am
Glad I work as a contractor.
I've had too many bad experiences with Pilot Unions where all members are equal - but some members are more equal than others.
Don't get me started on the hidden agendas and backroom deals - really toxic stuff!
I've had too many bad experiences with Pilot Unions where all members are equal - but some members are more equal than others.
Don't get me started on the hidden agendas and backroom deals - really toxic stuff!
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ScudRunner-d95
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:08 pm
Interesting read thanks for posting, the author is a member of this forum.
[quote author=Eric Janson link=topic=5672.msg14906#msg14906 date=1487546314]
Glad I work as a contractor.
I've had too many bad experiences with Pilot Unions where all members are equal - but some members are more equal than others.
Don't get me started on the hidden agendas and backroom deals - really toxic stuff!
[/quote]
Even in the corporate world without unions I have witnessed some pretty slimy dealings. always the good and the bad with both systems.
[quote author=Eric Janson link=topic=5672.msg14906#msg14906 date=1487546314]
Glad I work as a contractor.
I've had too many bad experiences with Pilot Unions where all members are equal - but some members are more equal than others.
Don't get me started on the hidden agendas and backroom deals - really toxic stuff!
[/quote]
Even in the corporate world without unions I have witnessed some pretty slimy dealings. always the good and the bad with both systems.
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TundraTire
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:42 am
I've worked at a non-union 705 and a union 705.
I'd gladly take the unionized environment any day.
I guess that makes me a bad, lazy, incompetent pilot.
I'd gladly take the unionized environment any day.
I guess that makes me a bad, lazy, incompetent pilot.
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John Swallow
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 pm
Just when I was starting to enjoy the limelight... (;>0)
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John Swallow
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 pm
"I guess that makes me a bad, lazy, incompetent pilot."
Well, up to now, we'd just been guessing. (;>0) And why would you liking a union environment make you a bad, lazy, incompetent pilot?
Some people are comfortable with union shops; some aren't. The only civilian aviation job I had was non-union. We weren't overpaid, nor were we overworked. It was the kind of a job where you didn't use the regulations to try and get out of work, but actively tried to find ways to get the job done, but stay within the regulations. The kind of a job where you didn't tell the boss that you couldn't go because the weather was below limits, but where you advised that if he didn't mind spending gas money, you could have a look and return to home base if you couldn't get in. The kind of a job where you left early and got home late and were lied to about departure times. But, the "bosses" were non-drinkers and hard workers and they were out there trying to make your salary. Hard to justify a union in those circumstances.
I lied about not working in a union environment: in Transport Canada (in my day), the inspectors belonged to an "association". Didn't really do much for us; did hamper us in one aspect though. If my subordinate and I were away from Monday to Thursday and he performed splendidly, I couldn't tell him to take Friday off... Violated the collective agreement.
One of the problems with working in a union shop is that you now have two masters... And you have to give part of your salary to one of them. With little say in how it's being spent.
Well, up to now, we'd just been guessing. (;>0) And why would you liking a union environment make you a bad, lazy, incompetent pilot?
Some people are comfortable with union shops; some aren't. The only civilian aviation job I had was non-union. We weren't overpaid, nor were we overworked. It was the kind of a job where you didn't use the regulations to try and get out of work, but actively tried to find ways to get the job done, but stay within the regulations. The kind of a job where you didn't tell the boss that you couldn't go because the weather was below limits, but where you advised that if he didn't mind spending gas money, you could have a look and return to home base if you couldn't get in. The kind of a job where you left early and got home late and were lied to about departure times. But, the "bosses" were non-drinkers and hard workers and they were out there trying to make your salary. Hard to justify a union in those circumstances.
I lied about not working in a union environment: in Transport Canada (in my day), the inspectors belonged to an "association". Didn't really do much for us; did hamper us in one aspect though. If my subordinate and I were away from Monday to Thursday and he performed splendidly, I couldn't tell him to take Friday off... Violated the collective agreement.
One of the problems with working in a union shop is that you now have two masters... And you have to give part of your salary to one of them. With little say in how it's being spent.
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TundraTire
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:42 am
Everyone always assumes that a unions sole purpose is to protect the lazy and/or incompetent.
A union levels the playing field for employees. One set of rules, one pay scale. More importantly, with ALPA you get the resources and protection if you were ever to require it. An association can do the same, but often times does not have the same level of resources available, or the experience.
I find the link above interesting, because it's blatantly false and fear mongering at the worst level.
A union levels the playing field for employees. One set of rules, one pay scale. More importantly, with ALPA you get the resources and protection if you were ever to require it. An association can do the same, but often times does not have the same level of resources available, or the experience.
I find the link above interesting, because it's blatantly false and fear mongering at the worst level.
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Liquid Charlie
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:34 pm
Well having gone through a merger with ALPA and being the prez of our association at the time and to become the MEC chair I have to say my dealings with APLA were for the most part positive. We were a legal bargaining unit and a registered association with several contracts under our belt. We joined ALPA not so much for labour relations as much as for a larger tox box and extended legal fore our crews, especially out of country. We also had a "no strike" , compulsory arbitration clause in our contract. This was completely against ALPA policy but as an independent part of the whole we told ALPA we would maintain the clause and they excepted that.
I am at a loss to why the WestJest association was never a bargaining unit and certainly the best way to agitate pilots is to threaten to fuck with a seniority list. The realities of a union are. It is only as good as it's members and the misconception it will fix all issues over night is naive. It takes several contracts to achieve your goals. Translated into years anywhere from 10 to 15 to hit the sweet spot. In a large group a collective agreement gives you a set of rules that both sides must abide by and it's not always the pilot that wins.
ALPA can do a lot of good but it's only as effective as the members. It's like most other things 1% or less end up doing all the work for the rest and it does become a thankless job. If there are back room deals it's not ALPA but your own group that are stabbing you in the back.
I was never big on unions but got I involved because I always felt I needed to be a moderate, lets think about this voice in a place where radical knee jerk thinking needed some tempering from time to time.
I am at a loss to why the WestJest association was never a bargaining unit and certainly the best way to agitate pilots is to threaten to fuck with a seniority list. The realities of a union are. It is only as good as it's members and the misconception it will fix all issues over night is naive. It takes several contracts to achieve your goals. Translated into years anywhere from 10 to 15 to hit the sweet spot. In a large group a collective agreement gives you a set of rules that both sides must abide by and it's not always the pilot that wins.
ALPA can do a lot of good but it's only as effective as the members. It's like most other things 1% or less end up doing all the work for the rest and it does become a thankless job. If there are back room deals it's not ALPA but your own group that are stabbing you in the back.
I was never big on unions but got I involved because I always felt I needed to be a moderate, lets think about this voice in a place where radical knee jerk thinking needed some tempering from time to time.
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John Swallow
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 pm
"I find the link above interesting, because it's blatantly false and fear mongering at the worst level."
TT:
Never having been involved in anything to do with ALPA - or any real union for that matter - what parts of the referenced link were "blatantly false" and "fear mongering at the worst level"?
John
TT:
Never having been involved in anything to do with ALPA - or any real union for that matter - what parts of the referenced link were "blatantly false" and "fear mongering at the worst level"?
John
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