EK 521 Interim Report Released

[Colonel]

Well, before takeoff you have to take a firehose
which sprays vast quantities of money at extreme
pressure and soak the airplane down with it.

[David MacRay]

[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=4138.msg11047#msg11047 date=1473199801]
Do you need power to fly?
[/quote]

Not if you find a really kickin' thermal column.

[TundraTire]

If you guys understood Boeings, and the 777 with respect to autothrottle operations, you'd understand the trap they got into, and failed to detect/understand.


How many aerobatic pilots will die this year? 5%?


I'm too lazy, but Mr. Janson will explain it better than I can.

[TundraTire]

So let's see....autopilot disconnected at 920agl with autothrottle engaged (correct procedure).


Windshear and tailwind result in touching down at 1100 metres on a 4000m runway.


The RAAS (?) annunciated long landing, so they initiated a go around.


Hit the TOGA, which was inhibited since they were on the ground (that's the important one), pitched up, started climbing, retracted flaps, selected gear up, answered ATC (bad idea), started sinking, firewalled it but it was too late.


Training is definitely an issue on this one.  Go around thrust is always confirmed by following the thrust lever with your hand as PM, but it got missed here.  This would be very difficult to train in the sim, hard to do a go around where the TOGA would be pressed while the aircraft is on the ground.


Easy to Monday-morning quarterback, especially if you don't understand the systems.

[David MacRay]

Welcome to Scudrunners TundraTire.

[quote author=TundraTire link=topic=4138.msg11058#msg11058 date=1473221836]

Easy to Monday-morning quarterback, especially if you don't understand the systems.
[/quote]

I admit that is exactly what I was up to.
I learned somethings here that hopefully will stick.

[Colonel]

[quote]Training is definitely an issue on this one[/quote]

Really?

[Liquid Charlie]

Not verbalizing and confirming "GOAROUNDTHRUST" in the boeing classic world is absolute followed by "RADARTHRUST (MAXTHRUST)" when it's going completely sideways but it seems that automation might be eroding this. I think there are more and more examples of deteriorating stick and rudder skills due to automation. I also think (not knowing the FDT of this particular crew) but long haul does not increase a pilot's sharpness and many pilots are on their own "auto pilot" at the end of a long flight. I have been there and actually had the idea flash through my head (I hope nothing goes wrong because I am completely  bagged)


The other fact is that there is very little tactile feed back. This leads to more head scratching when "hands on" pilots try and figure out the reasons why. When one gets into NG aircraft and realizes that the modern simulator is so close to actually flying the aircraft the video game reality kicks in. 

[Colonel]

Maybe Boeing didn't do the best job at implementing
this push-button crap?

That's two trashed 777's now because pilots thought
they had auto-throttles working for them - and they
didn't.

How many more 777's need to get crashed before
someone wakes up and notices the pattern?

I'm a [b]BAD PERSON[/b] - Arlo Speer at TC hates
my fucking guts - but I when I would have hand-
flown the mother at low altitude - left hand on
the control column, right hand on the throttles.

I know that your paperwork doesn't want you to
do this.  I know that your paperwork wants you
to follow procedures that have resulted in two
wrecked 777's, and Arlo says that paperwork is
always right.

Keep following your procedures that result in
wrecked aircraft.  Maybe you can wreck another
one this month.

[Colonel]

I find it mystifying that everyone thinks that Boeing
got it perfect.

Even Boeing makes mistakes.  Anyone here old
enough to remember the 737 rudder actuator?

Or the 767 fuel de-icer?

Maybe - just maybe - the HMI needs a tweak?

[esp803]

I'm sorry Colonel, when was the last time you hand flew a 777 low level?

Also, they didn't follow procedure, procedure would have been to confirm that the throttles were in fact moving to the TOGA position. It's not the procedure that's to blame it's the crew... as per norm.