License to learn

[“Bob”]

Don’t mistake risk aversion for logistics and business sense.

A CPL student taking a plane for a week to Vegas or Florida or wherever is every bit as risky as a fresh PPL holder doing the same. They are both new PPLs at this point.

Most CPLs struggle to get their required hours in due to aircraft availability. To have a PPL take an aircraft for a whole month just for fun not only severely affects the flight schools bottom line, but also means their CPLs can’t finish.

A better question to ask is why this is. Why are light aircraft more scarce and insurance rates so much higher and rules so much more comprehensive than they were before?

[David MacRay]

Too many planes got bent from things like guys not being allowed to practice landing in a crosswind then getting caught in one. Or taxiing into the gas pumps.

Crosswind limits duel? Great idea.

[“Bob”]

No. Something a lot more substantial than that.

Something that caused the largest manufacturer to stop producing light aircraft entirely before those pilots were even born. A decision that was entirely related to excessive accident rates.

[David MacRay]

Gremlins?

[trey kule]

Back in the 1980s two things happened. The economy went into a funk ( think interest rates at 20% for a mortgage). The second was that insurance became a real issue. A pilots take a 30 year old aircraft up, flying while drunk ti impress everyonewith their aerobatic prowess and a wing gets overstressed and comes off....and the manufacturer would get sued. The result of this trailing liability was that the prices for insurance ( the manufacturers liability) became too much.

The laws in the US were subsequently changed to make things better, but the industry has only partially recovered in small GA aircraft.
The fact is a 1978 Cessna 172 , except for a fancy interior and avionics will perform pretty much as well as an 2020 for 1/5 of the cost.
Consider the economic impact of that to a flight school. $100k, plus $75k for upgrade avionics, and sometimes paint and interior vs. $700 for a new one.
In addition, with typical Canadian weather and our cultural bias in being cheap, and the utilization rate is just not that great.



I too, can recall pilots renting and going on adventures. 3 hours a day minimums.
The biggest concern was an accident or mechanical issue 1500 miles from base.
But great experiences for a CPL wannabee building time.

Maybe there is a market for a time building club to be formed near some of the big flight schools.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The price of 1979 Cessna 172 inflation adjusted to 2021 would be about $128,000. A 2021 C 172 lists for $415,000. If you could buy a new C172 for not a lot more than a loaded F350 crew cab 4X4 , they would be selling a lot of airplanes.

In 1979 Cessna made about 13,000 piston airplanes comprising 33 models

152/ A152, 172/172XP/172RG, 177/177RG, 180, 182/T182/182RG/T182RG, 185, 188Agwagon/188Agtruck, 206/T206, 207T207, 210,T210,P210, 310/T310, 335, 337/T337P337, 340A, 402C,404,414A,421C

In 2020 Cessna made about 400 airplanes in 5 models

C172, C182/T182, 206/T206

The heavy hand of legal liability still weighs heavily on GA. The huge production runs in the 1970’s has kept GA going but those airplanes are getting used up and they are not being replaced.....

[Liquid_Charlie]

Things are so much more regulated now than 50 to 60 years ago. You did your minimum time with an instructor and then went out and pretty much taught yourself. Commercial was either "approved (150 hrs) or unapproved (200 hrs.) Anyone with access to an aircraft would always do the unapproved course. All the time built, except for required training such as Instrument training (5 hours) and part of the night rating, an instructor was required other than that you were out learning on your own.

We are in an age where there is so much "cover your ass" attitude we are regulated to absurdity. I always found it strange to be in conversation with a "modern" pilot during some "marginal" operation and the first thing out of their mouth is "it's legal" by doing so end run and abstract thinking. Me I never cared if it was legal. I just asked myself if it was safe. I think the train of thought for most trained within the last 20 or 25 years is misdirected.

Have accidents actually reduced due to modern training approaches. The new era flight schools do fall down in giving people the ability to learn from experience. Self taught lessons stick with us far better than being coddled and cuddled to mental neutrality.

Time marches on and things change. It's just sad to see that we seem to be incapable in maintaining the good shit and applying it to the present from bygone times.

[David MacRay]

It’s just expensive and we need to cough up or find a different hobby I guess.

If you could buy a new C172 for not a lot more than a loaded F350 crew cab 4X4 , they would be selling a lot of airplanes.

I feel like it’s even tough to get a Vans home built for that much. I would love a brand new C-182 but it looks like billionaire territory to me.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Have accidents actually reduced due to modern training approaches. The new era flight schools do fall down in giving people the ability to learn from experience. Self taught lessons stick with us far better than being coddled and cuddled to mental neutrality.

Time marches on and things change. It's just sad to see that we seem to be incapable in maintaining the good shit and applying it to the present from bygone times.

The GA fatal accident rate has declined about 75% in the last 50 years, as measured by accidents per 100,000 hours.I think it is impossible to isolate any one factor, like changes in flight training, to account for this but it is likely there is some correlation.

The big difference I think is reflected in a huge decrease in societies definition of “ acceptable risk”. IMO pilots don’t get to make mistakes and learn because the flight never happens due to extremely restrictive flight school rules.

[trey kule]

One of the things I noticed that in Europe there are lots of low powered, simple planes. The kind to go have fun in.

In Canada we seem to be preoccupied with trying to build hours behind a glass panel, and racing as fast as possible to our destination.

Perhaps it is time to consider experience building in simpler, cheaper to operate, airplanes. One can still go right across Canada comfortably with nothing but a transponder and one VHF radio ( or non at all, I suppose).

Does TC allow time credited in aircraft like the Pipistrele to count towards a higher license?

This whole concept of extended x-country PIC has gotten my interest,