DC-3 MISHAP
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Liquid Charlie
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:34 pm
[font=Verdana][/font][quote][font=Verdana][size=2]Really have to question how these Pilots were trained.[/size][/font][/quote][font=Verdana][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]They weren't - the video they ran had their instructor say as much. There is this misconception of "pinning" the tail wheel for directional control. The Col and Chuck will likely support me in this but when flying an aircraft on the edge of the stall the numbers differ for each aircraft, even same type. You can't fly an airspeed, you need the aircraft to set it's own speed and now manage the controls to keep it going in the direction you want, quiet hands, and if the aircraft settles back down just maintain the control position, don't try and prevent the sink and it will bounce back into the air and this might happen a cpl more times but it will eventually fly. It is against our muscle memory not to counteract the sink but if pull back you will end up just like these guys. Sticky snow on skis or deep snow(2 feet plus) on wheels is where I have seen this on countless occasions and on these types of takeoff I used 1/3 flap -- control speeds wwas out the window so go with a configuration that will get you in the air. [/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]This accident was a simple loss of directional control, with a hand off to the captain. It was likely already past the recovery. He should have chopped the power, unlocked the tail wheel and controlled the ground loop.If had done that we likely would not be having this conversation. These guys also thought they were operating off a short runway - 5000 ft -- really [/size][/font]
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Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]The Col and Chuck will likely support me in this[/quote]
!00%.
Cutting corners on proper training is very costly even if you do not wreck an airplane.
Remember the same group who do not get trained properly are very hard on airplanes because they don't know how to fly them.
!00%.
Cutting corners on proper training is very costly even if you do not wreck an airplane.
Remember the same group who do not get trained properly are very hard on airplanes because they don't know how to fly them.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
[quote]flying an aircraft on the edge of the stall ... You can't fly an airspeed ... quiet hands[/quote]
I don't know anyone that flies high alpha as an instrument procedure -
unless you have a HUD with AOA.
Quiet hands (and feet!) is important, because of the danger of adverse
yaw (or any other control movement) increasing your alpha, which is
incredibly close to CLmax. A half a degree can make a difference!
[quote]if the aircraft settles back down just maintain the control position, don't try and prevent the sink[/quote]
This is so important - your instincts are [b]WRONG[/b]. When the aircraft
sags, if you pull back on the column, you guarantee a stall with the
increased AOA. You [b]HAVE[/b] to let the nose drop, and oppose yaw with
the rudders (or differential thrust - 'way beyond these clowns) [b]NOT[/b] ailerons!
I have no idea what the Three Stooges were doing in high alpha with a plane
load of people. Completely reckless. The only thing that saved them - apart
from an incredibly tough airplane - was that they didn't have far to fall.
If they were light and had a very short/soft runway, I can see this procedure
being used - [b]BY AN EXPERT [/b]which these guys obviously weren't. Terribly
vulnerable to an engine cough. Any kind of yaw, well, you can see what
happens - wing drop as it stalls.
So sad to see a perfectly good airplane being wrecked by pilot error. It flew for
all those decades by 20th century pilots until a new-age clown got ahold of it.
Were anyone's [i]feelings[/i] hurt?
In the meantime, I'm just a stupid old 20th century pilot, and when I take off
tailwheel, I accelerate with the tail in the air, gradually lowering the nose as I
accelerate to stick the mains on the runway, and when I rotate, I am gone.
I know the Pitts S-2B doesn't have much street cred, but with the composite
three-blade prop, I can fully raise the tail immediately after power application
with no yaw - no gyroscopic precession. No pitch-yaw coupling, because
negligible polar moment of inertia because no metal blades. Integral of
radius squared, after all.
I know, we're all just really fucking stupid stick & rudder pilots that aren't
smart enough to push buttons and whine about our shitty airline jobs.
I don't know anyone that flies high alpha as an instrument procedure -
unless you have a HUD with AOA.
Quiet hands (and feet!) is important, because of the danger of adverse
yaw (or any other control movement) increasing your alpha, which is
incredibly close to CLmax. A half a degree can make a difference!
[quote]if the aircraft settles back down just maintain the control position, don't try and prevent the sink[/quote]
This is so important - your instincts are [b]WRONG[/b]. When the aircraft
sags, if you pull back on the column, you guarantee a stall with the
increased AOA. You [b]HAVE[/b] to let the nose drop, and oppose yaw with
the rudders (or differential thrust - 'way beyond these clowns) [b]NOT[/b] ailerons!
I have no idea what the Three Stooges were doing in high alpha with a plane
load of people. Completely reckless. The only thing that saved them - apart
from an incredibly tough airplane - was that they didn't have far to fall.
If they were light and had a very short/soft runway, I can see this procedure
being used - [b]BY AN EXPERT [/b]which these guys obviously weren't. Terribly
vulnerable to an engine cough. Any kind of yaw, well, you can see what
happens - wing drop as it stalls.
So sad to see a perfectly good airplane being wrecked by pilot error. It flew for
all those decades by 20th century pilots until a new-age clown got ahold of it.
Were anyone's [i]feelings[/i] hurt?
In the meantime, I'm just a stupid old 20th century pilot, and when I take off
tailwheel, I accelerate with the tail in the air, gradually lowering the nose as I
accelerate to stick the mains on the runway, and when I rotate, I am gone.
I know the Pitts S-2B doesn't have much street cred, but with the composite
three-blade prop, I can fully raise the tail immediately after power application
with no yaw - no gyroscopic precession. No pitch-yaw coupling, because
negligible polar moment of inertia because no metal blades. Integral of
radius squared, after all.
I know, we're all just really fucking stupid stick & rudder pilots that aren't
smart enough to push buttons and whine about our shitty airline jobs.
