To add to what Andy has said, T.C. flight training standards are set by incompetents and thus they would never hire someone that is competent.
Therefore the system can not possibly produce truly competent pilots.
Fortunately the designers of airplanes are building aircraft that soon will not need pilots.
In the mean time there will be a steady supply of wrecked airplanes that will keep the mechanics busy fixing them.
Hours to PPL
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David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=6263.msg16627#msg16627 date=1495157590]
[quote]We give up Chuck, tell us how many Class 1 instructors can't fly a Cessna 140?[/quote]
I did not ask the questiown to answer it myself.[/quote]
Then why do you ask it? Again and again and again and again and again and again and again?
[quote=Chuck Elisworth]
Do you feel my question is unfair to the class one instructors?[/quote]
Sure. I feel that no one knows the answer. I also feel quite tired of reading it. To finish this mornings feelings response I feel it's basically the same as asking, "How many Class one instructors like cats?" "How many like eggs?" "How many are left handed?"
Why direct that question towards Shiny? That is very strange.
I feel it would be fair to ask a specific Class one instructor or even a class 4, "Why can't you fly a tail dragger?" But you are not doing that. You are yet again writing on here, a question you have written more times than I will count, a question that is vague, that you don't know the answer to either.
Please stop.
[quote=Chuck Elisworth]
When I owned my flight school in the late eighties and early nineties there were more who couldn't than there were those who could.
But lets ask it another way.
Seeing as the Cessna 140 is a basic training airplane and has been around for over half a century and once was the most common training airplane in aviation would it not be reasonable to expect all class one instructors to have the flying skills to teach on one?
I am aware I may be seen as an asshole by some here but I at least am an asshole that expects a class one flight instructor to at least have basic flying skills.[/quote]
Do you expect them to be able to bake bread and ride a horse too? Do you think riding a horse is more difficult than flying? Yet most pilots have never been on a horse.
[quote]Is having high standards as a pilot a negative thing in aviation today?
[/quote]
I doubt it. I suspect you feel like it is. I don't think you are wrong to have higher standards and want every instructor to be able to fly a basic conventional gear airplane but it just is not going to happen. As Andy has said before, "It will be a very specific skill to fly those great old planes."
Why not celebrate those who can and ignore anyone that does not consider it an achievement?
Would it not be tedious if I post, "We give up Chuck, tell us how many Class 1 instructors can't fly a Cessna 140?" every tenth time you post here?
[quote]We give up Chuck, tell us how many Class 1 instructors can't fly a Cessna 140?[/quote]
I did not ask the questiown to answer it myself.[/quote]
Then why do you ask it? Again and again and again and again and again and again and again?
[quote=Chuck Elisworth]
Do you feel my question is unfair to the class one instructors?[/quote]
Sure. I feel that no one knows the answer. I also feel quite tired of reading it. To finish this mornings feelings response I feel it's basically the same as asking, "How many Class one instructors like cats?" "How many like eggs?" "How many are left handed?"
Why direct that question towards Shiny? That is very strange.
I feel it would be fair to ask a specific Class one instructor or even a class 4, "Why can't you fly a tail dragger?" But you are not doing that. You are yet again writing on here, a question you have written more times than I will count, a question that is vague, that you don't know the answer to either.
Please stop.
[quote=Chuck Elisworth]
When I owned my flight school in the late eighties and early nineties there were more who couldn't than there were those who could.
But lets ask it another way.
Seeing as the Cessna 140 is a basic training airplane and has been around for over half a century and once was the most common training airplane in aviation would it not be reasonable to expect all class one instructors to have the flying skills to teach on one?
I am aware I may be seen as an asshole by some here but I at least am an asshole that expects a class one flight instructor to at least have basic flying skills.[/quote]
Do you expect them to be able to bake bread and ride a horse too? Do you think riding a horse is more difficult than flying? Yet most pilots have never been on a horse.
[quote]Is having high standards as a pilot a negative thing in aviation today?
[/quote]
I doubt it. I suspect you feel like it is. I don't think you are wrong to have higher standards and want every instructor to be able to fly a basic conventional gear airplane but it just is not going to happen. As Andy has said before, "It will be a very specific skill to fly those great old planes."
Why not celebrate those who can and ignore anyone that does not consider it an achievement?
Would it not be tedious if I post, "We give up Chuck, tell us how many Class 1 instructors can't fly a Cessna 140?" every tenth time you post here?
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DeflectionShot
[quote]Would it not be tedious if I post, "We give up Chuck, tell us how many Class 1 instructors can't fly a Cessna 140?" every tenth time you post here? [/quote]
I think most of us would love to fly a Cessna 140 or C170. Guess how many are available at your local neighbourhood FTU? Yes that's right, close to zero.
The only one I know that has a C170 for rent is Rockcliffe Flying Club. The real issue should be making instructors proficient in C172 and 150s.
I think most of us would love to fly a Cessna 140 or C170. Guess how many are available at your local neighbourhood FTU? Yes that's right, close to zero.
The only one I know that has a C170 for rent is Rockcliffe Flying Club. The real issue should be making instructors proficient in C172 and 150s.
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Rookie Pilot
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:44 am
In Chuck's defense at least most of his flying has been outside the Smith Falls circuit.
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:46 pm
[quote author=Chuck Ellsworth link=topic=6263.msg16627#msg16627 date=1495157590]
When I owned my flight school in the late eighties and early nineties there were [b]more who couldn't than there were those who could[/b].[/quote]
Seems to me that a flying school is just the answer for that situation, no?
When I owned my flight school in the late eighties and early nineties there were [b]more who couldn't than there were those who could[/b].[/quote]
Seems to me that a flying school is just the answer for that situation, no?
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Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]Seems to me that a flying school is just the answer for that situation, no?[/quote]
I don't quite understand your question.
A flying school is the answer to what/
Training class ones that can fly both nose wheel and tail wheel airplanes?
Why should they need any special training the only difference is they have to control yaw with rudders on the ground if they can't do that then their license should reflect it
For instance if they are unable to control yaw without needing the nose wheel configuration then the license should say that.
Class one flight instructor certified to fly nose wheel airplanes only.
Yeh, that seems fair to me.
I don't quite understand your question.
A flying school is the answer to what/
Training class ones that can fly both nose wheel and tail wheel airplanes?
Why should they need any special training the only difference is they have to control yaw with rudders on the ground if they can't do that then their license should reflect it
For instance if they are unable to control yaw without needing the nose wheel configuration then the license should say that.
Class one flight instructor certified to fly nose wheel airplanes only.
Yeh, that seems fair to me.
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DeflectionShot
[quote]Class one flight instructor certified to fly nose wheel airplanes only. Yeh, that seems fair to me. [/quote]
You're still not addressing the fundamental problem: flight schools don't use tail wheel airplanes any more. In fact they haven't used conventional gear aircraft for decades. That's unlikely to change any time soon. It's 2017. To borrow from Don Rumsfeld you need to fight with the army you have not the one you wished you had.
You're still not addressing the fundamental problem: flight schools don't use tail wheel airplanes any more. In fact they haven't used conventional gear aircraft for decades. That's unlikely to change any time soon. It's 2017. To borrow from Don Rumsfeld you need to fight with the army you have not the one you wished you had.
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Chuck Ellsworth
[quote]You're still not addressing the fundamental problem:[/quote]
So what do you see the fundamental problem to be?
There are thousands of tail wheel airplanes still available and being sold and flown in Canada.
If someone buys a tail wheel airplane and needs training on flying one would it not be reasonable for that person to look for a flight instructor to do the training?
Or am I missing something such as a tail wheel airplane is so difficult to fly only people with special flying skills can safely fly one?
So what do you see the fundamental problem to be?
There are thousands of tail wheel airplanes still available and being sold and flown in Canada.
If someone buys a tail wheel airplane and needs training on flying one would it not be reasonable for that person to look for a flight instructor to do the training?
Or am I missing something such as a tail wheel airplane is so difficult to fly only people with special flying skills can safely fly one?
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DeflectionShot
[quote]So what do you see the fundamental problem to be? There are thousands of tail wheel airplanes still available and being sold and flown in Canada.[/quote]
I'm not sure there are "thousands" of airworthy tail wheel airplanes still available in Canada. And even if they are FTUs aren't buying them so it's a bit of a moot point.
Look, I wish it were otherwise since I happen to be fan of simple tail wheel airplanes with minimal instrumentation, etc. But the reality is otherwise. As Shiny has suggested, the demand isn't there and hasn't been there for forty years. The Victoria Flying Club, for example, used to have a Citrabria and guess what? Nobody rented it, and when somebody finally did, the pilot wrecked it. The end result? Sold off by the club.
I think we are better off getting instructors/students to master the equipment they have. If you're waiting for FTUs to resurrect tail wheel fleets, all I can say is good luck that.
I'm not sure there are "thousands" of airworthy tail wheel airplanes still available in Canada. And even if they are FTUs aren't buying them so it's a bit of a moot point.
Look, I wish it were otherwise since I happen to be fan of simple tail wheel airplanes with minimal instrumentation, etc. But the reality is otherwise. As Shiny has suggested, the demand isn't there and hasn't been there for forty years. The Victoria Flying Club, for example, used to have a Citrabria and guess what? Nobody rented it, and when somebody finally did, the pilot wrecked it. The end result? Sold off by the club.
I think we are better off getting instructors/students to master the equipment they have. If you're waiting for FTUs to resurrect tail wheel fleets, all I can say is good luck that.
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Chuck Ellsworth
O.K please take into consideration I am getting old and maybe senility is creeping up on me...but..
A flight instructor spends thousands of dollars and years of flying time to become a Class one instructor.
With average flying skills anyone can learn to fly a light tail wheel airplane in two hours from a competent tail wheel instructor.
Just for personal satisfaction and pride in your abilities as an instructor why not get the check out, then if someone wants a checkout on a tail wheel airplane you will be able to safely do it.
But remember I have unreasonable expectations when it comes to flying skills.
And I freely admit to being biased when it comes to the flight training industry in Canada...biased as in I think it's standards are to low.
A flight instructor spends thousands of dollars and years of flying time to become a Class one instructor.
With average flying skills anyone can learn to fly a light tail wheel airplane in two hours from a competent tail wheel instructor.
Just for personal satisfaction and pride in your abilities as an instructor why not get the check out, then if someone wants a checkout on a tail wheel airplane you will be able to safely do it.
But remember I have unreasonable expectations when it comes to flying skills.
And I freely admit to being biased when it comes to the flight training industry in Canada...biased as in I think it's standards are to low.
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