Eric and I were holding short #1 for take off recently.
Tower cleared us, and said that the crosswind had
shifted to a slight quartering tailwind.
Like we could give a shit. Off we went. Smoke and a right
turn northbound. Nice fuselage overlap from the kid.
172 who was #2 in sequence behind us, elected to taxi the
[i]entire length[/i] of the statute-mile-long parallel taxiway to take
off in the opposite direction, to avoid a [i]one knot tailwind
component[/i] on a 5,300 foot runway with a near-sea level
density altitude.
Ok, it might have been a whopping [b]2[/b] knots. I didn't
do the trignometry on the takeoff roll.
Now, I know Eric and I are [b]BAD PEOPLE[/b] - we lack virtue
to signal - but this future airline pilot couldn't handle a one (ok,
maybe two) knot tailwind component on a mile-long runway?!
Note to future airline pilots: try to develop some basic stick &
rudder skills, and try to fly as well as the [b]BAD PEOPLE[/b] who
are [i]shit pilots[/i] in your opinion, ok?
A One Knot Tailwind
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Four Bars
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:48 am
A couple of days ago, my wife asked me how our three daughters ( all now commercial pilots) compared to the many other young people with a couple hundred hours that I fly with as an instructor.
Without reservation or hesitation I could reply that I thought they were better than most.
And it wasn’t because they were our kids or because I had been involved in their training, It was solely due to all of them having checked out in our RV-6, which included mastering basic roll maneuvers and learning to think at 150+knots instead of 90-100 knots like their fellow students. Once they had done that, it was no contest between the RV or the Cardinal for building time and experience. And, with every flight, their ability to land either three-point or on the mains or one wheel first if required just got better and better.
To them, flying their Pilatus, their Beech 1900 or their Airbus 320 is not all that taxing, handling wise, compared to that little home built.
Although flying rotary wing or float flying will certainly increase ones skill level, I can’t think of anything other than a taildragger that will so quickly and hugely improve flying skill.
Without reservation or hesitation I could reply that I thought they were better than most.
And it wasn’t because they were our kids or because I had been involved in their training, It was solely due to all of them having checked out in our RV-6, which included mastering basic roll maneuvers and learning to think at 150+knots instead of 90-100 knots like their fellow students. Once they had done that, it was no contest between the RV or the Cardinal for building time and experience. And, with every flight, their ability to land either three-point or on the mains or one wheel first if required just got better and better.
To them, flying their Pilatus, their Beech 1900 or their Airbus 320 is not all that taxing, handling wise, compared to that little home built.
Although flying rotary wing or float flying will certainly increase ones skill level, I can’t think of anything other than a taildragger that will so quickly and hugely improve flying skill.
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Nark1
Four Bars:
I agree: pilots who fly helicopters and taildraggers are the best of the best! I'm not biased in the least.... :)
Helicopters are way more expensive to learn that your feet control stuff too. Taildraggers will do just fine.
I agree: pilots who fly helicopters and taildraggers are the best of the best! I'm not biased in the least.... :)
Helicopters are way more expensive to learn that your feet control stuff too. Taildraggers will do just fine.
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Eric Janson
- Posts: 412
- Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:31 am
Well on the A340 this sort of thing becomes quite critical. You've seen the video in the other topic.
The aircraft doesn't have a lot of surplus thrust. When you're getting 75' off the end of an 11000 runway on a hot day at MTOW and TOGA (max) thrust you start to pay more attention to Performance. A quad is different than a twin.
We use the airbus flysmart apps to calculate take-off Performance. We can put in actual wind and actual weight to get a calculation for actual conditions.
One of the things we are given is called the "Stop Margin" - the remaining runway after a rejected take-off at V1. This figure is usually less than 50m. Some Captains use a lower FLEX temperature giving increased thrust and an increased stop margin.
I've done several take-offs out of the Middle East at +48C where we were using TOGA (Max) thrust. This on a 12900' runway and we were at our Performance limit.
A one knot tailwind can be the difference between being able to take-off or not.
Quite normal for us to taxi the entire 12900' to take-off into the wind. As a bonus we get a 10 minute idle engine run allowing the engine to thermally stabilise giving lower engine temperatures on the take-off roll.
Our take-off roll is about 65 seconds.
Last year I was sitting on the jumpseat and the aircraft skipped before finally getting airborne. We've stopped using standard passenger weights and now use weights that more accurately represent the passengers.
The aircraft doesn't have a lot of surplus thrust. When you're getting 75' off the end of an 11000 runway on a hot day at MTOW and TOGA (max) thrust you start to pay more attention to Performance. A quad is different than a twin.
We use the airbus flysmart apps to calculate take-off Performance. We can put in actual wind and actual weight to get a calculation for actual conditions.
One of the things we are given is called the "Stop Margin" - the remaining runway after a rejected take-off at V1. This figure is usually less than 50m. Some Captains use a lower FLEX temperature giving increased thrust and an increased stop margin.
I've done several take-offs out of the Middle East at +48C where we were using TOGA (Max) thrust. This on a 12900' runway and we were at our Performance limit.
A one knot tailwind can be the difference between being able to take-off or not.
Quite normal for us to taxi the entire 12900' to take-off into the wind. As a bonus we get a 10 minute idle engine run allowing the engine to thermally stabilise giving lower engine temperatures on the take-off roll.
Our take-off roll is about 65 seconds.
Last year I was sitting on the jumpseat and the aircraft skipped before finally getting airborne. We've stopped using standard passenger weights and now use weights that more accurately represent the passengers.
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Rookie Pilot
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:44 am
[quote author=Eric Janson link=topic=9277.msg25481#msg25481 date=1541062476]
Well on the A340 this sort of thing becomes quite critical. You've seen the video in the other topic.
The aircraft doesn't have a lot of surplus thrust. When you're getting 75' off the end of an 11000 runway on a hot day at MTOW and TOGA (max) thrust you start to pay more attention to Performance. A quad is different than a twin.
We use the airbus flysmart apps to calculate take-off Performance. We can put in actual wind and actual weight to get a calculation for actual conditions.
One of the things we are given is called the "Stop Margin" - the remaining runway after a rejected take-off at V1. This figure is usually less than 50m. Some Captains use a lower FLEX temperature giving increased thrust and an increased stop margin.
I've done several take-offs out of the Middle East at +48C where we were using TOGA (Max) thrust. This on a 12900' runway and we were at our Performance limit.
A one knot tailwind can be the difference between being able to take-off or not.
Quite normal for us to taxi the entire 12900' to take-off into the wind. As a bonus we get a 10 minute idle engine run allowing the engine to thermally stabilise giving lower engine temperatures on the take-off roll.
Our take-off roll is about 65 seconds.
Last year I was sitting on the jumpseat and the aircraft skipped before finally getting airborne. We've stopped using standard passenger weights and now use weights that more accurately represent the passengers.
[/quote]
Hence so many departures in heavies over there are at night.....
Well on the A340 this sort of thing becomes quite critical. You've seen the video in the other topic.
The aircraft doesn't have a lot of surplus thrust. When you're getting 75' off the end of an 11000 runway on a hot day at MTOW and TOGA (max) thrust you start to pay more attention to Performance. A quad is different than a twin.
We use the airbus flysmart apps to calculate take-off Performance. We can put in actual wind and actual weight to get a calculation for actual conditions.
One of the things we are given is called the "Stop Margin" - the remaining runway after a rejected take-off at V1. This figure is usually less than 50m. Some Captains use a lower FLEX temperature giving increased thrust and an increased stop margin.
I've done several take-offs out of the Middle East at +48C where we were using TOGA (Max) thrust. This on a 12900' runway and we were at our Performance limit.
A one knot tailwind can be the difference between being able to take-off or not.
Quite normal for us to taxi the entire 12900' to take-off into the wind. As a bonus we get a 10 minute idle engine run allowing the engine to thermally stabilise giving lower engine temperatures on the take-off roll.
Our take-off roll is about 65 seconds.
Last year I was sitting on the jumpseat and the aircraft skipped before finally getting airborne. We've stopped using standard passenger weights and now use weights that more accurately represent the passengers.
[/quote]
Hence so many departures in heavies over there are at night.....
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:46 pm
What's the big problem? For whatever reason the 172 pilot was uncomfortable with taking off in a certain direction so they made a decision and didn't ball up the airplane. The good news is that they were out flying and building experience for next time. Live and let live.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Especially on a very long runway, it is common to have
wind socks at different locations indicating different
directions and strengths.
Let’s say our future airline pilot in his 172 was faced
with wind socks indicating a one knot tailwind at
both ends of his 15,000 foot runway.
Should he reject the flight, and taxi back to parking?
wind socks at different locations indicating different
directions and strengths.
Let’s say our future airline pilot in his 172 was faced
with wind socks indicating a one knot tailwind at
both ends of his 15,000 foot runway.
Should he reject the flight, and taxi back to parking?
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:46 pm
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=9277.msg25487#msg25487 date=1541095675]
Should he reject the flight, and taxi back to parking?
[/quote]
Is anyone hurt if he does? I wouldn't lose a whole lot of sleep over it.
Should he reject the flight, and taxi back to parking?
[/quote]
Is anyone hurt if he does? I wouldn't lose a whole lot of sleep over it.
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David MacRay
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:00 pm
I'm much more concerned about an instructor panicking about winds than a student.
Having said that, I must admit, regardless of who they are, I would rather they go back, park and read about tail winds when it is not going to be an issue, than just give it a try if they are not confident and understand their planes capabilities.
If I'm worried about a five knot crosswind my performance will be more effected by that than an actual higher crosswind that I am comfortable with.
Having said that, I must admit, regardless of who they are, I would rather they go back, park and read about tail winds when it is not going to be an issue, than just give it a try if they are not confident and understand their planes capabilities.
If I'm worried about a five knot crosswind my performance will be more effected by that than an actual higher crosswind that I am comfortable with.
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