A new poster suggested I start a new topic and the first subject that came to mind was one of the most common problems I observed when I was teaching advanced flying, and that was the inability to accurately judge the closing rate towards the runway from the last fifty feet to runway contact that was so prevalent among licensed pilots.
So with the goal of teaching pilots how to land rather than arrive I set up a method of teaching pilots how to accurately judge closing rate so as to be able to judge height accurately from fifty feet to runway contact.
At the moment I am to tired to start explaining the method and am going to just listen to the radio and fall asleep.
Tomorrow I shall get back here and write an outline on exactly the method I used that worked with every pilot that was having problems judging height accurately.
If anyone has questions by all means ask me and I will do my best to give you my thoughts on this subject.
I am retired and no longer fly but I still like to keep in the loop so to speak by writing about flying.
The last fifty feet.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
IMHO landing is hard because it is the maneuver that demands
the most precision from pilots.
You can get an instrument rating if you can fly +/- 100 feet of
altitude, but you can't go solo with that kind of error in your
landings!
A while back, I realized that a landing was essentially a joinup
and formation flight with the runway. This is a very advanced
maneuver, so it's no wonder pilots struggle with it.
Practice helps - this is what 10,000 landings gets you:
[img width=500 height=306][/img]
but as always, some good theory and training can really
accelerate your performance.
From my perspective, what you need to do the 50 foot
height point, is slowly transition to being one foot above
the runway, with the power off.
Don't hurry this transition. It's a bitch, because your
airspeed is continually changing which means that the
response to your flight control inputs is continually
changing, too!
Start with a loooong runway. Don't learn to land on
a short runway. That's crazy.
Don't be too demanding on how fast you transition
from a steady descent, at 50 feet, to being level at
one foot above the ground.
Truth be told, once you've got the airplane one foot
above the ground, and the power is off, landing is
assured. Trust me. My motto is, "We've never had
one stuck up there yet!"
I like to teach low flying, because I am a BAD PERSON
and TC hates me.
Screw landing. Just learn to transition at 50 feet to
being one foot above the runway, and I will handle
the power, and keep us there, so you can spend some
time learning how to control the aircraft without inducing
a pitch PIO which is the enemy of a good landing.
I add power, we overshoot, do it again.
If you do this a few times, without the stress of landing,
I guarantee you that if you formate at one foot with
the runway with the power off, the aircraft will land.
Your job is to try to stop a light aircraft from landing.
This allows it to touch down at minimum possible
speed, with the nosewheel in the air.
PS Sorry I snuck in my attitude towards bureaucrats.
I know this really pisses people off. I didn't mean it.
Actually, I did.
the most precision from pilots.
You can get an instrument rating if you can fly +/- 100 feet of
altitude, but you can't go solo with that kind of error in your
landings!
A while back, I realized that a landing was essentially a joinup
and formation flight with the runway. This is a very advanced
maneuver, so it's no wonder pilots struggle with it.
Practice helps - this is what 10,000 landings gets you:
[img width=500 height=306][/img]
but as always, some good theory and training can really
accelerate your performance.
From my perspective, what you need to do the 50 foot
height point, is slowly transition to being one foot above
the runway, with the power off.
Don't hurry this transition. It's a bitch, because your
airspeed is continually changing which means that the
response to your flight control inputs is continually
changing, too!
Start with a loooong runway. Don't learn to land on
a short runway. That's crazy.
Don't be too demanding on how fast you transition
from a steady descent, at 50 feet, to being level at
one foot above the ground.
Truth be told, once you've got the airplane one foot
above the ground, and the power is off, landing is
assured. Trust me. My motto is, "We've never had
one stuck up there yet!"
I like to teach low flying, because I am a BAD PERSON
and TC hates me.
Screw landing. Just learn to transition at 50 feet to
being one foot above the runway, and I will handle
the power, and keep us there, so you can spend some
time learning how to control the aircraft without inducing
a pitch PIO which is the enemy of a good landing.
I add power, we overshoot, do it again.
If you do this a few times, without the stress of landing,
I guarantee you that if you formate at one foot with
the runway with the power off, the aircraft will land.
Your job is to try to stop a light aircraft from landing.
This allows it to touch down at minimum possible
speed, with the nosewheel in the air.
PS Sorry I snuck in my attitude towards bureaucrats.
I know this really pisses people off. I didn't mean it.
Actually, I did.
-
Three Bars
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:22 pm
Relative motion is the best way to judge height. As far as I know, this is what is taught and has always been taught. It's how I was taught. When the runway starts rushing towards you, when the rapid outward movement of your eye image gets very close to the point of no movement, it's time to start rounding out and adjusting your gaze to the end of the runway to keep aligned rather than your approach aim point.
It's going to change with different aircraft going different speeds, and it's only a starting point that is built up with practice. Often the tendency when transitioning to higher performance aircraft is to flare too high because of it.
The other methods of judging distance, parallax and size, aren't useful. Parallax doesn't work at a useful distance and size will depend on the relative size of the ground features (flaring too low on a narrow runway).
It's going to change with different aircraft going different speeds, and it's only a starting point that is built up with practice. Often the tendency when transitioning to higher performance aircraft is to flare too high because of it.
The other methods of judging distance, parallax and size, aren't useful. Parallax doesn't work at a useful distance and size will depend on the relative size of the ground features (flaring too low on a narrow runway).
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Chuck Ellsworth
I will first comment on these points with the intent of understanding how exactly each phase is judged.
And in no way are my comments meant to disagree with this poster, my comments will be based only on my own experience when I was still teaching how to judge height. :)
[quote]
Relative motion is the best way to judge height. As far as I know, this is what is taught and has always been taught. It's how I was taught. When the runway starts rushing towards you,[/quote]
Where do you look when you are in this phase of the approach?
[quote]when the rapid outward movement of your eye image gets very close to the point of no movement, it's time to start rounding out and adjusting your gaze to the end of the runway to keep aligned rather than your approach aim point.
[/quote]
[font=verdana]Once the round out or flare is started where you look is critical to accurate height judgement, looking to close in will e detrimental to height judgement and for sure looking to far out will also be [/font][font=verdana][size=0.7em]detrimental[/size][/font][font=verdana] to accurate height judgement.[/font]
[font=verdana]I teach looking where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases, this changes with speed so it works at any speed. [/font]
[quote]It's going to change with different aircraft going different speeds, and it's only a starting point that is built up with practice. Often the tendency when transitioning to higher performance aircraft is to flare too high because of it.
The other methods of judging distance, parallax and size, aren't useful. Parallax doesn't work at a useful distance and size will depend on the relative size of the ground features (flaring too low on a narrow runway).[/quote]
The width of the runway will have no significant affect on judging height once you get used to looking at the proper picture.
For instance when crop dusting there is no runway, you only have the surface being approached to use for height judgement.
And in no way are my comments meant to disagree with this poster, my comments will be based only on my own experience when I was still teaching how to judge height. :)
[quote]
Relative motion is the best way to judge height. As far as I know, this is what is taught and has always been taught. It's how I was taught. When the runway starts rushing towards you,[/quote]
Where do you look when you are in this phase of the approach?
[quote]when the rapid outward movement of your eye image gets very close to the point of no movement, it's time to start rounding out and adjusting your gaze to the end of the runway to keep aligned rather than your approach aim point.
[/quote]
[font=verdana]Once the round out or flare is started where you look is critical to accurate height judgement, looking to close in will e detrimental to height judgement and for sure looking to far out will also be [/font][font=verdana][size=0.7em]detrimental[/size][/font][font=verdana] to accurate height judgement.[/font]
[font=verdana]I teach looking where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases, this changes with speed so it works at any speed. [/font]
[quote]It's going to change with different aircraft going different speeds, and it's only a starting point that is built up with practice. Often the tendency when transitioning to higher performance aircraft is to flare too high because of it.
The other methods of judging distance, parallax and size, aren't useful. Parallax doesn't work at a useful distance and size will depend on the relative size of the ground features (flaring too low on a narrow runway).[/quote]
The width of the runway will have no significant affect on judging height once you get used to looking at the proper picture.
For instance when crop dusting there is no runway, you only have the surface being approached to use for height judgement.
-
Eric Janson
- Posts: 412
- Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:31 am
[quote author=Three Bars link=topic=7042.msg18998#msg18998 date=1504981593]
Relative motion is the best way to judge height.[/quote]
That's how I judge my aiming point.
The part of the runway moving down the windshield is going to be behind you at touchdown.
The part of the runway moving up will be in front of you at touchdown.
The part of the runway that stays in the same place will be where you touchdown - so flare just before this point.
Takes a bit of practice but it works very well.
Relative motion is the best way to judge height.[/quote]
That's how I judge my aiming point.
The part of the runway moving down the windshield is going to be behind you at touchdown.
The part of the runway moving up will be in front of you at touchdown.
The part of the runway that stays in the same place will be where you touchdown - so flare just before this point.
Takes a bit of practice but it works very well.
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Chris
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:05 pm
[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=7042.msg18978#msg18978 date=1504929654]
Your job is to try to stop a light aircraft from landing.
This allows it to touch down at minimum possible
speed, with the nosewheel in the air.
[/quote]
I discovered a few days ago that if I really try to hold the 150 off as long as possible I'll end up doing a 3-point landing - mains and tail tie down ring. Fortunately it was a soft touchdown and no harm done beyond scratches on the ring. Was a bit of a shock though.
Your job is to try to stop a light aircraft from landing.
This allows it to touch down at minimum possible
speed, with the nosewheel in the air.
[/quote]
I discovered a few days ago that if I really try to hold the 150 off as long as possible I'll end up doing a 3-point landing - mains and tail tie down ring. Fortunately it was a soft touchdown and no harm done beyond scratches on the ring. Was a bit of a shock though.
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Chuck Ellsworth
When you are descending through the last fifty feet above the runway how accurate is your height judgement during that process?
For instance can you judge when you get to five feet above the runway and then every foot to contact?
If you can not you should get further training from someone who can teach properly.
For instance can you judge when you get to five feet above the runway and then every foot to contact?
If you can not you should get further training from someone who can teach properly.
-
Chris
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:05 pm
I think I'm fairly decent at judging height. 1000+ glider landings, sometimes 30 or 40 a day, is good practice for getting used to getting close to the runway. I can generally hold off within a foot of the ground.
When I tapped the tail ring I was trying to hold off a few inches off the runway until I ran out of speed. Without being able to see the plane from the outside I'm pretty sure I did what I intended, but didn't realize the little Cessna has enough elevator to put the tail right on the ground.
When I tapped the tail ring I was trying to hold off a few inches off the runway until I ran out of speed. Without being able to see the plane from the outside I'm pretty sure I did what I intended, but didn't realize the little Cessna has enough elevator to put the tail right on the ground.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Not sure you want that high a pitch attitude at touchdown.
If it makes you feel any better, the guys at Porter do the
same thing with the -8, IIRC.
PS Fly closed loop, not open loop. If you figure out how
to do that, you can fly pretty well anything.
If it makes you feel any better, the guys at Porter do the
same thing with the -8, IIRC.
PS Fly closed loop, not open loop. If you figure out how
to do that, you can fly pretty well anything.
-
Gravel Digger
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:08 am
What are your preferences when the snow is blowing across the runway, creating a false sense of drift or the vis is 3/8 or so?
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