Forum Fight!!!

[Strega]

Is there like a supr secret forum on avcan inside of flight training? I tried to click on the most recent post on flight training and it asked me to log in -- once I had logged in it said I didn't have access to that board or whatever.

That usually means the thread has been deleted.


Regarding the split s recovery: what exactly is the issue? I see there are a few reports of students doing the same thing, resulting in a Vmc rollover, and the recovery in all cases was a split S. One person said that the plane ended up almost vertical, automatically entering a split S, and continuing the split S seemed the most natural way to recover. If you're, say, 80 degrees vertical and have something like a 25-degrees-per-sec roll rate, how exactly is rolling going to help you? The only video I can find of a Vmc rollover shows the plane going vertically down:

[youtube][/youtube]


Rollovers from wake turbulence and mountain waves are slightly different, as you're probably not going to end up almost vertical.

Mr Crunch,


If you have to ask why recovering from inverted flight via a split s is a bad, stupid idea.  Go try it.. 


Still waiting for the reports about shutting an engine down and having it not re light.


Here is an example of a pilots brain turning to mush.. he is lucky to be alive,,, I guess he didnt know what to do when the failed engine wasn't preceded by an instructor reaching up and closing a throttle.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/1998/a98o0313/a98o0313.pdf


Here is another example of  how not to do things:
[youtube][/youtube]


And another:
[youtube][/youtube]

[CpnCrunch]

If you have to ask why recovering from inverted flight via a split s is a bad, stupid idea.

I was talking about recovering from a vertical down-line (or close to it).

Go try it.. 

Actually, I just did (in a sim). FSX it seems to be impossible to do a Vmc roll. X-plane seems to have a more accurate flight model, and it does do a Vmc roll. I only have the Baron B58, and no rudder pedals, so it may not be identical. Also, I'm not sure how accurate the flight model in X-plane is...it might not accurately simulate spins properly according to reports.


Anyway, all the tests resulted in 40-80 degrees inverted. For the 40-60 degrees, rolling and then pulling up results in about 400ft loss. For 75+ degrees, pulling up without rolling results in 1000-2000ft loss. In some of the cases, after flipping over, the plane automatically rotated and/or pitched back through the vertical to non-inverted flight. In no case was I ever near Vne as far as I remember. I have no idea how much g was pulled, as I couldn't find a g-meter option.

Still waiting for the reports about shutting an engine down and having it not re light.

If you look through this thread and the one of avcanada you'll see lots of examples, including from SSU and the Colonel. I'm not aware of any accident reports, if that's what you mean (and I never said there were any accidents).

[Colonel]

No one ever keeps the nose up.

Everyone lets the nose drop when
they roll.

If you don't let the nose drop, you don't
end up in a vertical downline.

Learn to fly a slow roll.

[Strega]

Mr Crunch


Go get in your airplane tomorrow (if you have one.. I dont think you do)  and roll inverted, let the nose drop 30 degrees,, and then split s out of it.  You will see why this is not (for a few moments) the recommended means to recover from this situation of upset. 


Flight sim and x plane are not real.... you cant die in them.

[CpnCrunch]

No one ever keeps the nose up.

Everyone lets the nose drop when
they roll.

If you don't let the nose drop, you don't
end up in a vertical downline.

Learn to fly a slow roll.

So, how would that have been done in the video above (assuming they had enough altitude to recover)? As far as I can see, it goes from steep bank to (almost) vertical downline in 2 seconds. There doesn't seem to be any time to bring the nose up during the snap roll (and would that even be a good idea, if you're stalled?)


Obviously they shouldn't have let it turn into a Vmc rollover in the first place, but I'm thinking that in the case where a student yanks bank on the yoke during a single-engine go-around, the snap roll might be a bit more sudden and with less warning.

[CpnCrunch]

roll inverted, let the nose drop 30 degrees,, and then split s out of it.  You will see why this is not (for a few moments) the recommended means to recover from this situation of upset. 

I completely agree. Perhaps try reading my post and you'll see I was talking about 75+ degrees nose drop, not 30.

[Strega]

Ok replace my 30 degrees with your 70 and see what happens.


Crunch..


You know nothing about aerobatics, or ME flying...  Getting into a situation where you are inverted, and let the nose drop to 70 degrees below the horizon... well the only excuse for that is being like "little pistons"

[CpnCrunch]

You know nothing about aerobatics, or ME flying...  Getting into a situation where you are inverted, and let the nose drop to 70 degrees below the horizon... well the only excuse for that is being like "little pistons"

Did you watch the video? What experience do you have with Vmc rollovers? Are you even a ME flight instructor? Oh wait, I remember you said on another forum that you don't have a current flight instructor rating.

[Colonel]

a ME flight instructor?

No such qualification exists in Canada.

Anyone with a bare CPL and 50 hours multi
can teach multi-engine. See CAR 425.21(5).

I have taught multi-engine for decades and
I have ATPL and class 1 instructor and
class 1 aerobatic instructor, none of which
are required to teach multi-engine.



To do aerobatics in a multi-engine airplane,
note that the nose goes UP, not DOWN as
as a TC Inspector would.

[Strega]

Are you even a ME flight instructor? Oh wait, I remember you said on another forum that you don't have a current flight instructor rating.

I think Colonel has answered your question.


Yes I have had a Vmc rollover demonstrated to me.  No I do not demo it for others.




Crunch youre an idiot.  Maybe you should stop spending time with "little pistons"... why dont you get him to show you how to recover from inverted flight?  He seems to know everything!