[quote author=Colonel Sanders link=topic=7671.msg21522#msg21522 date=1515166964]
Yeah, but you have to keep the bank less than 60 degrees
or you get the nasty registered letter. Again.
[/quote]
My suggestion......use them as wall paper in your basement bathroom. It sounds like you've collected enough of them over the years. (Sorry, gallows humour. Honestly not trying to pick a fight.)
Aerobatics and your plain old C150
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DeflectionShot
I'm going to guess that's probably not a stock 172....
[quote]You would very likely be tied to a post and shot for this in Canada, but this wasn't filmed in Canada.
[/quote]
[quote]You would very likely be tied to a post and shot for this in Canada, but this wasn't filmed in Canada.
[/quote]
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Trey Kule
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:19 am
Mcrit,,,,
I don’t think a wingover is part of a chandelle, or a lazy eight. The max bank in a proper chandelle or lazy eight is 30 degrees, IIRC.
This was why I mentioned to the op to find someone who actually understood how to do these manoevers properly.
I don’t think a wingover is part of a chandelle, or a lazy eight. The max bank in a proper chandelle or lazy eight is 30 degrees, IIRC.
This was why I mentioned to the op to find someone who actually understood how to do these manoevers properly.
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BCPilotguy
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 9:56 pm
[quote author=DeflectionShot link=topic=7671.msg21527#msg21527 date=1515180157]
I'm going to guess that's probably not a stock 172....
[/quote]
Well it has a smoke system and I don't think they came from the factory in olive drab, otherwise it's a bone stock 1961 172C.
I'm going to guess that's probably not a stock 172....
[/quote]
Well it has a smoke system and I don't think they came from the factory in olive drab, otherwise it's a bone stock 1961 172C.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
A wingover's entry and exit altitudes and airspeed
is the same - just the heading is reversed 180 degrees.
You could accomplish the same with a level, steep turn
with lots of G, but it's more elegant to get the nose up
as you turn, so that you turn at a slower speed which
results in a tighter radius with light G. Ball should be
in the center the whole time. Prop effects must be
overcome.
While a chandelle also reverses the heading 180 degrees
the exit altitude is higher and the exit airspeed is slower
than the entry altitude and airspeed. Basically, a chandelle
converts airspeed into altitude while reversing direction.
PS A wingover can safely be performed with 90 degrees
of bank at the apogee in any airplane. The G is light but
positive and the ball is in the center. It is a wonderful
co-ordination maneuver that teaches pilots that you
don't need to have high G (and a high stall speed) at
high angles of bank - even with no slip or skid!
Pity it is illegal.
is the same - just the heading is reversed 180 degrees.
You could accomplish the same with a level, steep turn
with lots of G, but it's more elegant to get the nose up
as you turn, so that you turn at a slower speed which
results in a tighter radius with light G. Ball should be
in the center the whole time. Prop effects must be
overcome.
While a chandelle also reverses the heading 180 degrees
the exit altitude is higher and the exit airspeed is slower
than the entry altitude and airspeed. Basically, a chandelle
converts airspeed into altitude while reversing direction.
PS A wingover can safely be performed with 90 degrees
of bank at the apogee in any airplane. The G is light but
positive and the ball is in the center. It is a wonderful
co-ordination maneuver that teaches pilots that you
don't need to have high G (and a high stall speed) at
high angles of bank - even with no slip or skid!
Pity it is illegal.
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Tailwind W10
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:39 pm
Illegal or not, wouldn't a wingover (or even a hammerhead) be a good maneuver to extricate yourself from a botched box canyon run?
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
unlikely, because:
1) unless you've practiced something 100 (preferably 1000)
times before, don't try it. See impossible turn, 178 seconds,
etc.
2) wingover and hhead both convert airspeed into altitude.
You probably aren't going as fast as you can in a canyon
(kudos if you are) so you have to be careful that when the
nose comes up, you aren't going to immediately run out
of airspeed.
3) if there is an overcast layer above (if so, what the hell
are you doing there?!) you may end up doing the pivot in
cloud. While some of us enjoy that sort of thing - I have
seen Greg Koontz, Gary Ward, Patty Wagstaff do that -
most people don't like that, and boy do people get pissed
off about it.
A minimum radius level turn, at the slowest speed you
are comfortable at, is probably the best idea. You can
pull up a little bit (step up then level off) to bleed airspeed
for the ensuing level 180, but even this maneuver may
be challenging for most pilots. BTW, I would probably
select takeoff flap (not landing flap) for minimum stall
speed. Best to keep an eye on the ASI during these
shenanigans, though. See #1 above.
Best to remain in control of the aircraft. I am not a fan
of Hail Marys. Statistically they have poor outcomes.
1) unless you've practiced something 100 (preferably 1000)
times before, don't try it. See impossible turn, 178 seconds,
etc.
2) wingover and hhead both convert airspeed into altitude.
You probably aren't going as fast as you can in a canyon
(kudos if you are) so you have to be careful that when the
nose comes up, you aren't going to immediately run out
of airspeed.
3) if there is an overcast layer above (if so, what the hell
are you doing there?!) you may end up doing the pivot in
cloud. While some of us enjoy that sort of thing - I have
seen Greg Koontz, Gary Ward, Patty Wagstaff do that -
most people don't like that, and boy do people get pissed
off about it.
A minimum radius level turn, at the slowest speed you
are comfortable at, is probably the best idea. You can
pull up a little bit (step up then level off) to bleed airspeed
for the ensuing level 180, but even this maneuver may
be challenging for most pilots. BTW, I would probably
select takeoff flap (not landing flap) for minimum stall
speed. Best to keep an eye on the ASI during these
shenanigans, though. See #1 above.
Best to remain in control of the aircraft. I am not a fan
of Hail Marys. Statistically they have poor outcomes.
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John Swallow
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 pm
What Andrew said. By the time many people get to the point that they think they have "a box canyon" problem, they have run out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas.
Here in the Okanagan, we have ample opportunity to encounter these situations and several examples of those who did. (Some of the aircraft are still there...)
Even attempting to negotiate a pass can be problematic. Take the Rogers Pass, f'rinstance: if you're winkling your way up the valley in PP weather and your path is blocked at the summit, you have no manoeuvering room. You could be in a Piper Cub on steroids and you'd still be scuppered.
The time to turn around was back where you had a turning capability.
It takes skill and practice to execute a maximum rate/minimum radius turn in flat terrain and in good visibility. The odds go down significantly in poor visibility, vertical real estate, and no horizon.
Here in the Okanagan, we have ample opportunity to encounter these situations and several examples of those who did. (Some of the aircraft are still there...)
Even attempting to negotiate a pass can be problematic. Take the Rogers Pass, f'rinstance: if you're winkling your way up the valley in PP weather and your path is blocked at the summit, you have no manoeuvering room. You could be in a Piper Cub on steroids and you'd still be scuppered.
The time to turn around was back where you had a turning capability.
It takes skill and practice to execute a maximum rate/minimum radius turn in flat terrain and in good visibility. The odds go down significantly in poor visibility, vertical real estate, and no horizon.
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Colonel
- Posts: 3450
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:31 am
Back when I was instructing on 172's ... for slow flight
we would have takeoff flap on, and after a bit of practice
I would have the student in a level 30 degree bank to the
left at around 60 mph. Nothing crazy.
I would have him look down at the left main wheel, and
note the radius. Generally it was pretty minimal, and all
it took was 30 degrees of bank. Getting the speed down
was what got the radius of the turn down (see below)
I love aerobatics, but you have to walk before you run,
and the first thing is to master slow flight - and not just
straight and level slow flight. Turns, climbs, descents
at high alpha.
Theory: In first year calculus you will derive that
A = V^^2 / R
where A = acceleration, V = velocity, R = radius
Re-arrangine the above using basic algebra:
R = V^^2 / A
So, radius is a function of the velocity squared and
inversely proportional to the G you are pulling.
If you have [b]halve your airspeed[/b] from 120 mph to
60 mph, the radius of your turn will be [b]one quarter[/b]
of what it was, with the same G.
NB While my class 1 aerobatic instructor rating expires
forever on 3/1/2018, the above I learned at Mathematics
& Engineering at Queen's, all those decades ago.
we would have takeoff flap on, and after a bit of practice
I would have the student in a level 30 degree bank to the
left at around 60 mph. Nothing crazy.
I would have him look down at the left main wheel, and
note the radius. Generally it was pretty minimal, and all
it took was 30 degrees of bank. Getting the speed down
was what got the radius of the turn down (see below)
I love aerobatics, but you have to walk before you run,
and the first thing is to master slow flight - and not just
straight and level slow flight. Turns, climbs, descents
at high alpha.
Theory: In first year calculus you will derive that
A = V^^2 / R
where A = acceleration, V = velocity, R = radius
Re-arrangine the above using basic algebra:
R = V^^2 / A
So, radius is a function of the velocity squared and
inversely proportional to the G you are pulling.
If you have [b]halve your airspeed[/b] from 120 mph to
60 mph, the radius of your turn will be [b]one quarter[/b]
of what it was, with the same G.
NB While my class 1 aerobatic instructor rating expires
forever on 3/1/2018, the above I learned at Mathematics
& Engineering at Queen's, all those decades ago.
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