The Importance of Coordination
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Slick Goodlin
- Posts: 837
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They told me you have to be coordinated to be any good at flying these old planes. Nailed it.
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TwinOtterFan
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:11 pm
- Location: Onoway, AB
I realize that this was for the funny, but it provokes a question that something that came up the other day and I was wondering about if I may request everybody's knowledge once again? I really do appreciate it.
The other day I went up with my instructor to do forced approaches, it was quite windy with plenty of gust even at 5000'. During one of my drills after the instructor had cut the throttle as I was rounding out from my high key to mid, I was fighting a tailwind that was pushing my tail hard left essentially slipping the plane. It was only momentary and I jumped on the rudder, but I wondered after if this was somehow different than the normal step on the ball? does it matter what is causing the miscoordination? or only that it is always better to be flying coordinated?
The other day I went up with my instructor to do forced approaches, it was quite windy with plenty of gust even at 5000'. During one of my drills after the instructor had cut the throttle as I was rounding out from my high key to mid, I was fighting a tailwind that was pushing my tail hard left essentially slipping the plane. It was only momentary and I jumped on the rudder, but I wondered after if this was somehow different than the normal step on the ball? does it matter what is causing the miscoordination? or only that it is always better to be flying coordinated?
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Liquid_Charlie
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:36 pm
- Location: Sioux Lookout On.
- Contact:
Co-ordination is key and from my recent experience new pilots of today do not use the rudders enough or effectively. There is a fine line between chasing the aircraft, control wise, and keeping it coordinated. The expression "step on the ball" should be "squeeze the ball.
In older generation aircraft you would normally pick up a wing starting with rudder and then controlled aileron followup (remembering aileron drag). Squeeze the rudders and quiet hands on the stick. A lot of times in turbulence the aircraft will right its self but if it doesn't then control input. Quiet hands and feet are the secret - chasing your tail just magnifies the issues. Rudder control is becoming the lost art in flying. This is demonstrated by the new attitude that tail draggers are just an accident looking for a place to happen. If you fly the aircraft and keep flying it until slow taxi speeds (even then you need to conscious of wind) the fire breathing dragon becomes second nature and a lot of fun
the colonel could explain stuff like this much better than I
cheers
In older generation aircraft you would normally pick up a wing starting with rudder and then controlled aileron followup (remembering aileron drag). Squeeze the rudders and quiet hands on the stick. A lot of times in turbulence the aircraft will right its self but if it doesn't then control input. Quiet hands and feet are the secret - chasing your tail just magnifies the issues. Rudder control is becoming the lost art in flying. This is demonstrated by the new attitude that tail draggers are just an accident looking for a place to happen. If you fly the aircraft and keep flying it until slow taxi speeds (even then you need to conscious of wind) the fire breathing dragon becomes second nature and a lot of fun
the colonel could explain stuff like this much better than I
cheers
"black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight"
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David MacRay
- Posts: 763
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:16 am
The fact that you ask questions puts you ahead of a lot of pilots TOF.
It’s a seriously good resource to have access to many of the experienced people that post here. I’m pretty thankful that I can get straightened out when I get some theory going that turns out wrong.
Was the wind causing a slip or a skid?
I’m weird but after reading some explanations about the differences, to me one is bad and the other is our friend. I do believe either should only be happening because the pilot wants it to.
Most lessons I read about yaw, seem to be about controlling it almost in a preventative manner rather than creating or causing it. One exception being doing forward slips.
When you are just cruising along in a straight line with a crosswind, no one minds the plane going sideways in a stable crab. It’s when turning or landing, I want the plane to be going straight so one wing does not stall without the other trying to flip my plane, or so the tires can take over carrying the mass of the plane in the smoothest forward motion possible.
It’s a seriously good resource to have access to many of the experienced people that post here. I’m pretty thankful that I can get straightened out when I get some theory going that turns out wrong.
Was the wind causing a slip or a skid?
I’m weird but after reading some explanations about the differences, to me one is bad and the other is our friend. I do believe either should only be happening because the pilot wants it to.
Most lessons I read about yaw, seem to be about controlling it almost in a preventative manner rather than creating or causing it. One exception being doing forward slips.
When you are just cruising along in a straight line with a crosswind, no one minds the plane going sideways in a stable crab. It’s when turning or landing, I want the plane to be going straight so one wing does not stall without the other trying to flip my plane, or so the tires can take over carrying the mass of the plane in the smoothest forward motion possible.
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TwinOtterFan
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:11 pm
- Location: Onoway, AB
One of the main reasons I have been looking at Champs, Christavia's and Citabria's is because if I am going to buy a plane and fly the wings off it I wanted to increase more than just hours in my log book. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous about tackling a tail dragger but I figure after a 100 plus hours in it I should start to acquire some decent stick and rudder skills.
The scenario in question was myself in a left hand descending power off turn, and I what felt a lot like being hit from over my right shoulder causing the tail to go left and what felt like almost forward. I guess either way you slice it uncoordinated unless slipping is bad so correcting it is good. I do find myself "chasing the ball" Also over trimming as well, there is much to be said for experience every time my instructor takes control the plane seems to almost "settle" and since I doubt the winds calm down every time he touches the controls it must be just the difference in how he interacts with the controls compared to myself.
The scenario in question was myself in a left hand descending power off turn, and I what felt a lot like being hit from over my right shoulder causing the tail to go left and what felt like almost forward. I guess either way you slice it uncoordinated unless slipping is bad so correcting it is good. I do find myself "chasing the ball" Also over trimming as well, there is much to be said for experience every time my instructor takes control the plane seems to almost "settle" and since I doubt the winds calm down every time he touches the controls it must be just the difference in how he interacts with the controls compared to myself.
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David MacRay
- Posts: 763
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:16 am
First I need to write what I should have started with.
The single thing I don’t like about the mighty C-172 is the control yoke instead of a stick. My hands think it’s a steering wheel and sometimes try to use it as one. I feel like it takes effort to avoid that. Maybe if I fly a few thousand more hours I can stop that. Probably only if I stop driving cars.
I really like this.That picture is spectacular Slick. I would actually like to have a poster of it to hang up.
I am thinking of making a note of that for myself.Liquid_Charlie wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 5:13 pmThere is a fine line between chasing the aircraft, control wise, and keeping it coordinated. The expression "step on the ball" should be "squeeze the ball.
... Squeeze the rudders and quiet hands on the stick.
The single thing I don’t like about the mighty C-172 is the control yoke instead of a stick. My hands think it’s a steering wheel and sometimes try to use it as one. I feel like it takes effort to avoid that. Maybe if I fly a few thousand more hours I can stop that. Probably only if I stop driving cars.
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mcrit
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:13 am
You try anymore puns like that and I swear I will moderate your ass.....Slick Goodlin wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 10:50 amThey told me you have to be coordinated to be any good at flying these old planes. Nailed it.C04C029F-9931-4004-89D9-1979E0EF3AAD.jpeg
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Big Pistons Forever
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:05 pm
TO fan
I would suggest what you were experiencing was an illusion created by drift. Some things should not be overthought. The controls always work the same way in normal flight. If the airplane is not doing what you want it to do use the controls to make it go where YOU want it, not where it wants to go.
I would suggest what you were experiencing was an illusion created by drift. Some things should not be overthought. The controls always work the same way in normal flight. If the airplane is not doing what you want it to do use the controls to make it go where YOU want it, not where it wants to go.
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“Bob”
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:42 pm
Controlling and preventing yaw encompasses everything you could possibly ever do with the rudder.
Most of flying an aircraft involves preventing it. Stepping on the ball and keeping it in the centre.
Yaw is the first item in our cycle of control, followed by roll, then pitch for most aircraft operations.
Yaw induces roll because of something known as slip-roll coupling. A plane knocked askew by turbulence will slip, and that slip will seek to right the aircraft. This is also why the aircraft rolls very effectively with just yaw input. No point in putting a roll input when a yaw input will change that roll except in specific situations.
So when the plane is knocked by turbulence, the ball is already to the bottom wing. Don’t step on it or you’ll make it worse.
Rather than using yaw-roll-pitch.. you want to use roll and control. This is the same as recovery from a forward slip. If you control yaw first, unpleasant things will happen. Roll the wing level with a normal rudder input, then slowly remove both inputs to return the plane to coordinated flight.
If it is a wing drop due to stall, then under no circumstances do you want to use aileron. Use the rudder to induce more of a slip to pick that wing up while reducing pitch and increasing power.
The other times we might want to induce yaw is for a side slip (if allowed by aircraft type), engine out operations, spin entry and recovery, and snap roll entry and exit, among others.
While newer pilots tend to ignore the rudder which is easy to do on newer planes, I often see older pilots doing the “rudder dance”. It’s like fishing for a greaser but along the normal axis, and the potential for passenger discomfort (especially at the back), PIO, and aircraft damage is alarming.
Back in the 1950s, a bunch of tail wheel trained pilots ripped three of four engines off a 707 while doing a rudder dance which turned into Dutch roll, and promptly killed everyone on board. Not too long ago another tail happy pilot ripped the vertical stabilizer off his Airbus and wound up in Jamaica Bay with all of his crew and passengers.
The important thing about yaw is that it is appropriate for the situation. Not insufficient or too much. Control and prevent.
Most of flying an aircraft involves preventing it. Stepping on the ball and keeping it in the centre.
Yaw is the first item in our cycle of control, followed by roll, then pitch for most aircraft operations.
Yaw induces roll because of something known as slip-roll coupling. A plane knocked askew by turbulence will slip, and that slip will seek to right the aircraft. This is also why the aircraft rolls very effectively with just yaw input. No point in putting a roll input when a yaw input will change that roll except in specific situations.
So when the plane is knocked by turbulence, the ball is already to the bottom wing. Don’t step on it or you’ll make it worse.
Rather than using yaw-roll-pitch.. you want to use roll and control. This is the same as recovery from a forward slip. If you control yaw first, unpleasant things will happen. Roll the wing level with a normal rudder input, then slowly remove both inputs to return the plane to coordinated flight.
If it is a wing drop due to stall, then under no circumstances do you want to use aileron. Use the rudder to induce more of a slip to pick that wing up while reducing pitch and increasing power.
The other times we might want to induce yaw is for a side slip (if allowed by aircraft type), engine out operations, spin entry and recovery, and snap roll entry and exit, among others.
While newer pilots tend to ignore the rudder which is easy to do on newer planes, I often see older pilots doing the “rudder dance”. It’s like fishing for a greaser but along the normal axis, and the potential for passenger discomfort (especially at the back), PIO, and aircraft damage is alarming.
Back in the 1950s, a bunch of tail wheel trained pilots ripped three of four engines off a 707 while doing a rudder dance which turned into Dutch roll, and promptly killed everyone on board. Not too long ago another tail happy pilot ripped the vertical stabilizer off his Airbus and wound up in Jamaica Bay with all of his crew and passengers.
The important thing about yaw is that it is appropriate for the situation. Not insufficient or too much. Control and prevent.
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John Swallow
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:21 am
Wings
The 707 wings are swept back at 35 degrees and, like all swept-wing aircraft, displayed an undesirable "Dutch roll" flying characteristic which manifested itself as an alternating yawing and rolling motion. Boeing already had considerable experience with this on the B-47 and B-52, and had developed the yaw damper system on the B-47 that would be applied to later swept wing configurations like the 707. However, many new 707 pilots had no experience with this phenomenon as they were transitioning from straight-wing propeller driven aircraft such as the Douglas DC-7 and Lockheed Constellation.
On one customer acceptance flight, where the yaw damper was turned off to familiarize the new pilots with flying techniques, a trainee pilot exacerbated the Dutch Roll motion causing a violent roll motion which tore two of the four engines off the wing. The plane, a brand new 707-227 N7071 destined for Braniff, crash landed on a river bed north of Seattle at Arlington, Washington, killing four of the eight occupants.
The 707 wings are swept back at 35 degrees and, like all swept-wing aircraft, displayed an undesirable "Dutch roll" flying characteristic which manifested itself as an alternating yawing and rolling motion. Boeing already had considerable experience with this on the B-47 and B-52, and had developed the yaw damper system on the B-47 that would be applied to later swept wing configurations like the 707. However, many new 707 pilots had no experience with this phenomenon as they were transitioning from straight-wing propeller driven aircraft such as the Douglas DC-7 and Lockheed Constellation.
On one customer acceptance flight, where the yaw damper was turned off to familiarize the new pilots with flying techniques, a trainee pilot exacerbated the Dutch Roll motion causing a violent roll motion which tore two of the four engines off the wing. The plane, a brand new 707-227 N7071 destined for Braniff, crash landed on a river bed north of Seattle at Arlington, Washington, killing four of the eight occupants.